Kentucky basketball next year

#26
#26
Brian McCat said:
And I guess you know the inside story on every player? Were you at every practice? Do you know how it played out, or are you just believing what the scribes regurgitate?
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Don't need to be at every practice. The man's been caught cheating twice, he will be a third time, and I'll take the stories of multiple players and reporters over a used car salesman of a coach and bias KY fans any day of the week. I thought he was slime at UMASS, thought he was at Memphis, he is at KY, and he always will be.
 
#27
#27
volprof said:
Who cares. I'm just ready for "kids" that are apparently mature enough to die for our country in some godforsaken field to be able to go directly to the NBA. Apparently the NBA is serious business. That 19 year old that got shot up in Afghanistan the other week probably doesn't belong. Not mature enough. Give me a break!

And yes, I'm being facetious.
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I don't exactly disagree with you, but the model of high school straight to an NBA bench is no better than one-and-done. There are very few who can go from high school straight to earning meaningful minutes in the NBA.

If they adopted a model similar to that of baseball (do not declare for draft, you are eligible out of high school, after any year in JUCO, after 3rd year at 4-year university) and utilized the D-League a little better (possibly attempt to buy a European league to go along with it), I would be all for that.
 
#28
#28
Brian McCat said:
You should stick to what you know.

Josh Harrellson
Deandre Liggins
Darius Miller

This isn't an exhaustive list by any means, just my list from 10 seconds of thinking about it. All three ended up in the pros, and all three were 4-year players at UK.

Terrance Jones played 3 years at UK and ended up in the pros too.
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Miller and Liggins were bona fide 4-5* too, not some scrubs. And as previously noted TJ was there for 2 yrs only.
 
#29
#29
bowlinggreenvol said:
Miller and Liggins were bona fide 4-5* too, not some scrubs. And as previously noted TJ was there for 2 yrs only.
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Still beside the point.

4 or 5 stars does not translate directly to NBA success. A coach who can coach them up coupled with desire to work and develop does. Liggins and Miller had no shot at the NBA thanks to Billy Clyde. And Jorts? He was forced to ride back in the equipment van after a loss with Billy Clyde, and locked in a bathroom stall at halftime by BCG. He had no chance at a pro career, but he made it because of Cal and hard work. I think that it's an absurd assertion that Cal's ability as a coach is minimal.
 
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#31
#31
Brian McCat said:
You should stick to what you know.

Josh Harrellson
Deandre Liggins
Darius Miller

This isn't an exhaustive list by any means, just my list from 10 seconds of thinking about it. All three ended up in the pros, and all three were 4-year players at UK.

Terrance Jones played 3 years at UK and ended up in the pros too.
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The super star kids. Not the role players. Cal is all about the now.
 
#32
#32
Brian McCat said:
Still beside the point.

4 or 5 stars does not translate directly to NBA success. A coach who can coach them up coupled with desire to work and develop does. Liggins and Miller had no shot at the NBA thanks to Billy Clyde. And Jorts? He was forced to ride back in the equipment van after a loss with Billy Clyde, and locked in a bathroom stall at halftime by BCG. He had no chance at a pro career, but he made it because of Cal and hard work. I think that it's an absurd assertion that Cal's ability as a coach is minimal.
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I'm sure Cal is somewhat responsible for their NBA careers or draft status, in as much as he didnt eff it up like BCG did. All it takes is a half way competent coach to let guys like Miller and Liggins do their thing and they have a great chance at succeeding.
 
#33
#33
bowlinggreenvol said:
I'm sure Cal is somewhat responsible for their NBA careers or draft status, in as much as he didnt eff it up like BCG did. All it takes is a half way competent coach to let guys like Miller and Liggins do their thing and they have a great chance at succeeding.
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Kills you to admit Cal might be able to coach, doesn't it?

:)
 
#34
#34
E-Tizzle said:
I don't exactly disagree with you, but the model of high school straight to an NBA bench is no better than one-and-done. There are very few who can go from high school straight to earning meaningful minutes in the NBA.

If they adopted a model similar to that of baseball (do not declare for draft, you are eligible out of high school, after any year in JUCO, after 3rd year at 4-year university) and utilized the D-League a little better (possibly attempt to buy a European league to go along with it), I would be all for that.
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You make some good points. And I use to want a baseball model for basketball as well; however, I think it's all unfair. If they're adults, let's treat them that way. An athlete shouldn't have to go to college at all if they don't want, and they shouldn't have to stay 3 years if they don't want (say something happens to change their mind during their time in school). I'm not saying they're going to make the best of decisions all the time, but who does! Whatever decision they make though, they should be able to determine their own future - not some arbitrary rules.
 
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#35
#35
And as a college instructor who has to teach athletes on a fairly consistent basis, a lot of them don't belong here anyhow. It's great that they're getting this opportunity, but let's face it: they either wouldn't be here at all or don't give a crap about a degree (yes, even the ones who have no professional future still often behave this way). Regarding college bball, these "one-and-doners" should just be able to go on to the league and not waste anymore of their time or anybody else's. I don't mean to sound callous. I'm not. It's just actual experience with some of these athletes can really make you see things differently. That being said, some of the best students I've ever had have been athletes. Not football or basketball, but athletes at the university nonetheless.
 
#36
#36
The current issue with player participation in the D-league is complex, but I agree with volprof that it is a marketing/recognition issue from the player perspective.

In addition, the college route is far more visible than D-league.

And as volprof says, for every "dumb jock," there are many who are excellent students who deserve to be there.
 
#37
#37
volprof said:
You make some good points. And I use to want a baseball model for basketball as well; however, I think it's all unfair. If they're adults, let's treat them that way. An athlete shouldn't have to go to college at all if they don't want, and they shouldn't have to stay 3 years if they don't want (say something happens to change their mind during their time in school). I'm not saying they're going to make the best of decisions all the time, but who does! Whatever decision they make though, they should be able to determine their own future - not some arbitrary rules.
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In the baseball model they are draft eligible after high school, as well as after EVERY year if at a JUCO. If they go to UK year one, have a terrible year or feel as if they will be recruited over, transfer to JUCO (do not have to sit out), then become draft eligible after the following year.

If they don't like the rules, they can always go to Europe and play (against better than college competition) while earning some money. I'm very surprised more don't do this.

volprof said:
And as a college instructor who has to teach athletes on a fairly consistent basis, a lot of them don't belong here anyhow. It's great that they're getting this opportunity, but let's face it: they either wouldn't be here at all or don't give a crap about a degree (yes, even the ones who have no professional future still often behave this way). Regarding college bball, these "one-and-doners" should just be able to go on to the league and not waste anymore of their time or anybody else's. I don't mean to sound callous. I'm not. It's just actual experience with some of these athletes can really make you see things differently. That being said, some of the best students I've ever had have been athletes. Not football or basketball, but athletes at the university nonetheless.
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Having been a student-athlete as well as an instructor (intro-level CS/IT class while in grad school), I couldn't agree more - some of the athletes should never have been given a high school diploma, let alone entrance into a 4-year university. You don't sound callous at all, I understand better than most. That's why I'm such a fan of the baseball model (for draft eligibility and MiLB). 99.99997% of players are not ready to play and contribute at the highest level right out of high school, but they may be equally unfit for an academic institution. While the D-League is a step in the right direction, the NBA needs to look at MiLB and continue its development.
 
#38
#38
The reason they don't do the D-League or Europe is because College is the best avenue to make it. It's all about the marketing- DL and Europe don't have the draw. Reputation is earned for future endorsements, by and large, from college performance. It's just the current culture.
 
#39
#39
E-Tizzle said:
In the baseball model they are draft eligible after high school, as well as after EVERY year if at a JUCO. If they go to UK year one, have a terrible year or feel as if they will be recruited over, transfer to JUCO (do not have to sit out), then become draft eligible after the following year.

If they don't like the rules, they can always go to Europe and play (against better than college competition) while earning some money. I'm very surprised more don't do this.



Having been a student-athlete as well as an instructor (intro-level CS/IT class while in grad school), I couldn't agree more - some of the athletes should never have been given a high school diploma, let alone entrance into a 4-year university. You don't sound callous at all, I understand better than most. That's why I'm such a fan of the baseball model (for draft eligibility and MiLB). 99.99997% of players are not ready to play and contribute at the highest level right out of high school, but they may be equally unfit for an academic institution. While the D-League is a step in the right direction, the NBA needs to look at MiLB and continue its development.
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Those are all fair points. And I agree that, between the "one-and-done" and the 3 year rule, I'd prefer the 3 year rule. I still just think anybody ought to be able to do whatever they want at anytime, whether or not it's an appropriate decision. We generally don't hold anybody else to those sorts of standards in our society.

And on another note, I hope it didn't sound like I was speaking down to you earlier. My "you" uses were for hypothetical purposes and not directed at you specifically. haha!
 
#40
#40
volprof said:
Those are all fair points. And I agree that, between the "one-and-done" and the 3 year rule, I'd prefer the 3 year rule. I still just think anybody ought to be able to do whatever they want at anytime, whether or not it's an appropriate decision. We generally don't hold anybody else to those sorts of standards in our society.

And on another note, I hope it didn't sound like I was speaking down to you earlier. My "you" uses were for hypothetical purposes and not directed at you specifically. haha!
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The reason I would like the 3-year rule is because college basketball would be exponentially improved. For those that don't get drafted high enough out of high school to sign (you don't declare, as you are eligible - only sign if you're drafted high enough) would contribute to programs for 3 years. And for those that worry about injury, they could always implement a draft and follow program, that includes a minimum insurance. Tons of ways to do it, most of them better than the current status quo, haha.

I followed your use of "you" as hypothetical - we're on the same page, haha. :good!:
 
#41
#41
Brian McCat said:
Kills you to admit Cal might be able to coach, doesn't it?

:)
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I've seen Cal out coached, with more talent, too many times. I don't care if Nerlens went down there's no excuse for losing to us by 30 with the supposed talent on that roster. He has either not coached them up well enough or missed horribly on his evaluations. He does do a fairly decent job of controlling egos for the most part, which is tough. Assuming all else even I'd take Cuonzo with UK's roster over Cal and our roster and that has nothing to with ethics, personality, etc.
 
#44
#44
I agree that the baseball model makes sense, but just to point out, let's all remember what happened when Dave Serrano was being recruited to be the UT baseball coach. There was a huge meltdown here because, gasp, he didn't have a "real" degree. He did play college baseball, but his degree is from Trinity College and University, which has a variety of non-US mailing addresses (Spain, Malaysia, Ghana, Nigeria, and on and on) and awards degrees for "non-traditional learning."

Typically, baseball players don't graduate. Since this is the case, what happens when we go looking for a b-ball coach? If they were good players, there's an excellent chance that they didn't get a bachelor's degree, much less a master's.

If we say that it's OK for athletes to leave without a degree (and I agree that it's OK), what should we require for their coaches during the brief period while they're here?
 
#45
#45
E-Tizzle said:
If they don't like the rules, they can always go to Europe and play (against better than college competition) while earning some money. I'm very surprised more don't do this.
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Or, we could just let them go to the NBA and make a lot more money playing for better coaches, since grown men should be able to try out for whatever the hell league they want. Volprof is right.
 
#46
#46
E-Tizzle said:
The reason I would like the 3-year rule is because college basketball would be exponentially improved.
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College basketball would be improved by telling Anthony Davis he has to play another year at a JUCO if he wants to go to the NBA. Yeah, that sounds fair.
 
#48
#48
VKAman said:
Or, we could just let them go to the NBA and make a lot more money playing for better coaches, since grown men should be able to try out for whatever the hell league they want. Volprof is right.
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In the baseball model, they WOULD be draft eligible out of high school.

VKAman said:
College basketball would be improved by telling Anthony Davis he has to play another year at a JUCO if he wants to go to the NBA. Yeah, that sounds fair.
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I don't think you understand. In the baseball model, Anthony Davis would never have gone to college in the first place. If he went to UK in that model, he would be there for 3 years. If he's there for 3 years, they wouldn't get Noel and/or Cauley-Stein. That means instead of only UK getting 3 elite post players for 2 total years, at least one other team has at least one of them for 3 years. In that scenario, how would having Anthony Davis in college for 3 years NOT improve the college game? However, under the baseball model, he would have skipped college altogether.

As far as JUCO goes, it's the draft route for those athletes who don't fit the "student-athlete" model and would not be able to stay eligible for more than one season, but are not quite good/refined enough to jump to an NBA roster straight out of high school.
 
#49
#49
bleedingTNorange said:
That'd be dumb for both. Stein's stock won't get much higher than it is, top 15 and harrow will be a bench player next year.
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If they could go, this year's draft is down enough that they should - but I don't see a team taking Harrow ANYWHERE in the draft.
 
#50
#50
E-Tizzle said:
In the baseball model, they WOULD be draft eligible out of high school.



I don't think you understand. In the baseball model, Anthony Davis would never have gone to college in the first place. If he went to UK in that model, he would be there for 3 years. If he's there for 3 years, they wouldn't get Noel and/or Cauley-Stein. That means instead of only UK getting 3 elite post players for 2 total years, at least one other team has at least one of them for 3 years. In that scenario, how would having Anthony Davis in college for 3 years NOT improve the college game? However, under the baseball model, he would have skipped college altogether.

As far as JUCO goes, it's the draft route for those athletes who don't fit the "student-athlete" model and would not be able to stay eligible for more than one season, but are not quite good/refined enough to jump to an NBA roster straight out of high school.
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I understand completely. You're saying guys like Trey Burke and Otto Porter should be slaves to the system instead of being allowed to make decisions for themselves. I just think that's about as idiotic as it gets.
 
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