Key to Titans Winning in 2010 Besides D

#51
#51
volfanjustin said:
OK, let's move away from the VY discussion. We seem to be split about him. I want to talk about Jeff Fisher. Titans fans seem to have differing opinions about him. I don't think his philosphy works, especially in this NFL. He is the NFL version of Fulmer, if he we coaching any other team in any other city I believe he would have been fired already.

So Titans fans, what are your feelings about Fisher and how much longer are you all willing to tolerate him?
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The same feeling Steelers fans had about Cowher pre-2005 super bowl win; there's ups and downs in the fanbase about it, but most like him (since before him, the Titans only consistantly good seasons came at the end of the 70s)

Now as for the bold statement; he's going to be there for at least several years longer (unless next season the team drops to say the 1st draft pick).

The Fulmer comparison is a bit strong. As I discussed on another board, if you're going to compare college to pro coaches, you have to equate them better. For example, based on the current systems in both: winning your division in the NFL would be the same as winning you conference in college; making the playoffs would be the same as making a BCS bowl game. Taking those into account, it's both hard to both equate him to Fulmer and to say that a coach a year removed from accomplishing both those things should be axed.

My biggest issue with the Fulmer comparison though is the team result/state. Fulmer's stay at this team wore it down -- look at the change in the trends in UT results in the early 2000s (alternating 10 win and 8 win) to the end (alternate 10 wins and 5 wins). Fulmer's last few years left the team in some talent-lacking positions also (see last year's team and part of the state this year).

Fisher's been pretty consistant with how the Titans have done: they've only had 3 or 4 losing seasons the last 11-13 years, and made the playoffs 6 times in the last 10 years or so. The team hasn't been going downhill, it's still very talent-loaded. Also it really wasn't until the baltimore game in the 2008 that his playoff record became non-winning (but then again, if you're judging by that idea, only Bellicheck, Tomlin, and Reid should be safe year in and out). He also was able to in two years take a team that had to purge almost all its best players in 2004 due to cap problems (the GM Floyd made several bad contracts), and by 2006 he was able to get them back - just missing playoff competition - and back into it in 2007. He's a very good coach, especially given what he has had to work with most of his tenure here. He's kind of earned his stay. But just because 2009 wasn't as good of a season, that hasn't been the epitome of his career

The Fulmer comparison is really a much too harsh one here, and is really quite off (I don't mean to criticize you, but I'm curious if that extent of a view comes a bit since you're viewing the issue from a fanbase that considers itself rivals, and in some senses does have a much higher standard of gauging success due to the bar of set by several seasons results of having Peyton Manning lead your team)


He is a coach that if he were fired, he'd also be snatched up within a year. Dallas has wanted him back since he was almost let go in 2006. He's not someone who'd sit around on the market like Fulmer; he would be hired within an offseason unless he decided he simply wanted some time off
 
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#52
#52
My Fulmer comparison was more to the style and conservatism, both are very conservative in their approach, run the ball, play good defense and kick field goals. And out of 15 full seasons and 1 partial season he only has 6 winning seasons, that to me is not very good.
 
#53
#53
volfanjustin said:
My Fulmer comparison was more to the style and conservatism, both are very conservative in their approach, run the ball, play good defense and kick field goals. And out of 15 full seasons and 1 partial season he only has 6 winning seasons, that to me is not very good.
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(sidenote: the kick field goals thing was really only about the last 2-3 years -- they didn't have a running game that could score in 20-10 yard or so situations (all lendale doesnt work) so they had to kick a bunch of field goals since they couldn't get the ball in for the score. Post chris johnson, they're able to score much better inside the redzone and as such the field goal number has dropped.)

but what is that based on? Again, is your standard of good here set on preformance of the Colts/Patriots level?

On most NFL teams, you have to have a coach who can weather seasons of ups and downs. Save 1-3 teams each decade (Colts and Pats this decade), you have to have an NFL coach that deals with ups and downs. Most of these teams are going to go up or down every few years due to the NFL's nature of designed parity (through free agency and salary cap). He also only has 4 losing seasons - so 6,5,4, I'd say you're looking at average at worst. If instead you just go with "I want to change till I get a coach that always wins", you get a current Oakland Raiders result. He's has to weather a bit here, but again he's done well, especially considering this is a team that has a past history of performing poorly and often not getting the big star players.

He should be viewed exactly how Cowher was viewed before 2005; it's pretty much the exact same case: long term coach, hasn't won a super bowl, has still done pretty well....and on the average NFL team, getting to 6/7 playoffs in 10/11 years is still considered pretty good.

again though, if you're going to compare him to Fulmer, you have to again remember that, to the NFL, making the playoffs is the same as making a BCS bowl game (just bowl, not title); this close still to that kind of result, a coach won't get fired


EDIT: I wanted to say I felt play calling styles are different as well as the ability to adapt: where as Fulmer would say try to keep running each game even if it wouldn't work, Fisher has been shown willing to change play styles for overall seasons depending on what personel he has.
 
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#54
#54
volfanjustin said:
Here we go with this question again, I have answered this very question about 10 times on this board. How long have you been a Titans fan, since they moved to Tennessee?

I am just curious about Titans fans feelings towards Fisher. I have heard many on the radio who are starting to run out of patience with him, I just want to know if that is the majority.
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I've been a fan since I knew the franchise was moving here. I was a Green Bay fan before that, but I was a kid and just liked Reggie White.

So... how long have been a Colts fan?



I don't think the majority of Titans fans are running out of patience with him. If we have a winning season this year, I think most will be excited about the seasons to come. The slow starts are annoying, though.
 
#55
#55
IPorange said:
I've been a fan since I knew the franchise was moving here. I was a Green Bay fan before that, but I was a kid and just liked Reggie White.

So... how long have been a Colts fan?



I don't think the majority of Titans fans are running out of patience with him. If we have a winning season this year, I think most will be excited about the seasons to come. The slow starts are annoying, though.
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course thanks to Goodell, the owners, and the NFLPA, the next "season to come" after this season might be 2-3 years down the road :banghead2:
 
#56
#56
IPorange said:
I've been a fan since I knew the franchise was moving here. I was a Green Bay fan before that, but I was a kid and just liked Reggie White.

So... how long have been a Colts fan?



I don't think the majority of Titans fans are running out of patience with him. If we have a winning season this year, I think most will be excited about the seasons to come. The slow starts are annoying, though.
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I have been a Colts fan since we drafted Marshall Faulk, I never really had a team until Polian got him. I loved watching him and then fell in love with the Colts.
 
#57
#57
TrueOrange said:
(sidenote: the kick field goals thing was really only about the last 2-3 years -- they didn't have a running game that could score in 20-10 yard or so situations (all lendale doesnt work) so they had to kick a bunch of field goals since they couldn't get the ball in for the score. Post chris johnson, they're able to score much better inside the redzone and as such the field goal number has dropped.)

but what is that based on? Again, is your standard of good here set on preformance of the Colts/Patriots level?

On most NFL teams, you have to have a coach who can weather seasons of ups and downs. Save 1-3 teams each decade (Colts and Pats this decade), you have to have an NFL coach that deals with ups and downs. Most of these teams are going to go up or down every few years due to the NFL's nature of designed parity (through free agency and salary cap). He also only has 4 losing seasons - so 6,5,4, I'd say you're looking at average at worst. If instead you just go with "I want to change till I get a coach that always wins", you get a current Oakland Raiders result. He's has to weather a bit here, but again he's done well, especially considering this is a team that has a past history of performing poorly and often not getting the big star players.

He should be viewed exactly how Cowher was viewed before 2005; it's pretty much the exact same case: long term coach, hasn't won a super bowl, has still done pretty well....and on the average NFL team, getting to 6/7 playoffs in 10/11 years is still considered pretty good.

again though, if you're going to compare him to Fulmer, you have to again remember that, to the NFL, making the playoffs is the same as making a BCS bowl game (just bowl, not title); this close still to that kind of result, a coach won't get fired
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I am not trying to place the expectations on Fisher to the same success that the Colts and Pats have had. I understand that is unreasonable. I don't think Fisher is a bad coach, I think he is just average and his philosphy does not work, in the NFL today you have to score points and other than CJ they don't really draft to have an explosive offense.
 
#59
#59
volfanjustin said:
I am not trying to place the expectations on Fisher to the same success that the Colts and Pats have had. I understand that is unreasonable. I don't think Fisher is a bad coach, I think he is just average and his philosphy does not work, in the NFL today you have to score points and other than CJ they don't really draft to have an explosive offense.
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I think (and I've been trying to look at all this separate from team feelings, as I have been the entire discussion) that if you were to rate him (I'm going with a Bad-Average-Good-Great scale) he'd be between Average and Good, but closer to good than average

They did used to have a pretty consistant scoring offense (rushing style from 98 till 01; passing style from 03 to 05 or so); the gap from around 04/05 until the type of offense seen last season came as part of the rebuilding from purging of almost their whole roster (save QB McNair, which came afterwards), the success they had in 06, 07, and 08 actually came much sooner than everyone expected. I think my point there though was to say it hasnt always been "keep the score low and score just enough to win" like it was the last 2 seasons (before this one)

They've also had alot of draft picks not pan out (esp at WR) but that's a whole different story
 
#60
#60
TrueOrange said:
How'd Faulk end up on the Rams anyways?
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This is when I began to learn of Polian's brilliance, I think what he saw is that we were not a real contender yet, so he traded Faulk to the Rams who were closer to being really good, for the draft pick that came to be Edge.
 
#62
#62
volfanjustin said:
This is when I began to learn of Polian's brilliance, I think what he saw is that we were not a real contender yet, so he traded Faulk to the Rams who were closer to being really good, for the draft pick that came to be Edge.
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More like Mike Peterson. And the Rams in no way appeared to be closer to being really good at that point. They had a pretty bad record the year before and Kurt Warner was gonna backup Trent Green.
 
#63
#63
1. Fisher is a very good coach.
2. VY is a beast. He just wins...
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#64
#64
buckeyevol23 said:
More like Mike Peterson. And the Rams in no way appeared to be closer to being really good at that point. They had a pretty bad record the year before and Kurt Warner was gonna backup Trent Green.
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You are right, I forgot it was a 2nd and a 5th (I think) not a 1st rd pick. The Rams were closer to being good than we were at that point. The Colts were miles from being any good. They were expecting Green to be good for them that year, I know Kurt was a back up, but again they thought Green was going to lead them to a good year.
 
#66
#66
emainvol said:
I don't agree with you on anything, but you are dead on. The Titans want to win, they need to find another QB, quickly.
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That seems to be very misinformed. It simply doesn't make any sense. You say "if the titans want to win, they need to find another QB, quickly." Well what kind of logic is that? Do you not realize that the Titans are 26-13 when Vince Young is starting under center.

You'll probably say it's all because of the defense and CJ. But that wouldn't make any sense either, in VY's first two seasons, in games he started, he had a total W-L record of 18-11, and that was before the Titans even drafted Chris Johnson. And if defense is your excuse, well i'll be the first to point out that during 2006, his rookie of the year season, in which he took over for a team that started 0-5, and led them to an 8-5 finish, that the Tennessee Titans defense was ranked DEAD LAST in the NFL. If you don't believe me look it up.

VY might not put up great numbers, but whenever he's on the field something changes, this team as a whole performs better. VY isn't a qb who's going to put up 300 yards a game and 30 TD's a year. But think about it, VY's only been in the NFL 4 years, and has only seen significant playing time in 3 of them. Of those 3 years, he only performed badly in one of them, which was his sophomore season. Most NFL QB's have at least 1 bad season out of their first 3 or 4. If you ask me, it's still wayy too early to give up on him.

Another reason i believe VY will only improve, is because he is now in a system that he likes. Mike Heimerdinger, the Titans offensive coordinator, knows VY's talents and knows how to utilize them. Keep in mind, Steve McNair's best seasons were under the coaching of Heimerdinger. VY's first two seasons were under the coaching of Norm Chow, who seemed to be more worried about making Vince into something he wasn't rather than utilizing his skill set, which i think was one of the direct causes of VY's poor sophomore season. Give it time, you'll see. VY can and will perform at a high level, he's shown many times over his short career that he has all the capabilities and then some to lead an NFL team. I'm sick of hearing people say he can't throw. That simply isn't true. Like i said, he might not be the most prolific NFL QB, but i don't care who you are, 26-13 isn't a fluke.
 
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