Kim Caldwell comparisons to Heupel

[volbeast33]

Interesting point. So, the ‘system” is a mystical entity which exists in an ethereal realm independent of coaches, players, plays, and execution? Got it.

The system which is the veer and shoot…. took similar talent from 21 ppg the year before Heup arrived to 39 ppg in his first season…. It doesn’t guarantee wins but it makes a team able to compete/win even when the talent level is lower.

 

[Orange.]

Hate to point it out but Heupel has not been able to adjust enough against the top of the SEC. That is my worry about the new system. Works against the lesser teams but can we beat SC, Tx and LSU with it. Time will tell.

That's not quite fair, Lucy, my friend. With the total number of players equal to an entire recruiting class missing from portal exits due to Cornpone, and scholarship restrictions (still ongoing) on top of that, Heupel beat 3 of the most recent 4 national champions (Bama, LSU, and Clemson) is only his second season. That is competing at a high level. And under adverse circumstances. He has won two consecutive NY6 bowls. That he has not yet beaten Georgia shouldn't be construed as being unable to adjust to the SEC. He is statistically at or near the top in numerous SEC offensive stats. It's the defense that is taking longer to build in a two-platoon sport because defense is relatively more dependent on having recruited the best athletes and less on scheme, but we are recruiting well. You are perhaps accidentally setting a standard that pretty much amounts to winning the national championship his first or second year, which is also an unreasonable standard by which to judge CKC. Also, to say that "he hasn't even won the Eastern Division," as you have said before, is also misleading. He would have won the Western Division in '22. He beat head-to-head and at their stadium the team that won the West that year, as well as beating the runner up in the West.

One of Heupel's high school recruits ('22) on defense now, James Pearce Jr., is being projected (by some way too early lists) to be the top pick in next year's draft. This year will also be the first year Heupel will have a QB who he identified and recruited out of high school. And he still won't have a full-sized recruiting class like his competitors do until 2028 because of over-the-top penalties, more reflective of NCAA bias than justice (compare how the NCAA just covered for Michigan for two years and then eventually did nothing: zero scholarship penalties).

If Caldwell does something like what Heupel has done, it will be great. If she does better, so much the better.

If we can beat everyone (or almost everyone) except the big three in WBB that you mention as litmus tests, that would be a very very impressive year. And then let's see if we can pick some of them off from there.

I say all this as good news. We don't have to win the conference this year to begin to build a champion. Heupel is a better "comp" for a new coach than some people may think. The NCAA intended to leave us for dead. Seriously. And they are still pissed off about Heupel winning so quickly.

Most importantly, for one of our team's fans to slight another of our teams does nothing but harm to the Tennessee brand and thus to all of our teams. We should try to be more like softball and baseball, both ranked 3rd at the moment and having nothing but good words for each other.

 

[volbeast33]

I am not sure pointing actual losses is a negative outlook versus stating you know facts. Bringing this back to the lvs, Kellie beat Texas, Alabama, and Texas A&M in the past but that did not lessen the damages of more recent losses. You have get those wins consistently, year after year. Heupel has definitely brought the program back from a low point but, if the aspirations is being an NC contender, these next two seasons are going to be pivotal.
His

I agree with that…. He has to keep proving himself but anyone that thinks he has done a bad job…. hasn’t been paying attention.

 

[miket4god]

Interesting point. So, the ‘system” is a mystical entity which exists in an ethereal realm independent of coaches, players, plays, and execution? Got it.

No the system is a general philosophy. But each game is made up of a game plan put together by coaches who are human and executed by players who are human.
We can have a good system and still have coaches get too conservative and players who execute poorly.
Not every loss is indicative of a system not good enough to work.

 

[Lucy]

You really don't understand the situation Heupel took over and how everything has progressed the last three seasons. He took over a team that went 3-7 and then had a lot of the best players transfer. His system is the major reason his first season was a big turnaround to 7-5 and that he followed up in 2022 with an 11-2 season that included wins over LSU, Florida, Alabama, and Clemson. They beat 6 ranked teams. They took a "massive" step back to 9-4 this last season because of questionable QB play and poor secondary play the last half of the season.

The only "top of the SEC" team that he hasn't beat in his three seasons is UGA. They have the most talented roster in the country and I'm pretty sure they've only lost to Alabama the last three seasons.

There...you should be all caught up.

Amazingly enough I knew all of that! I like JH a lot I just don’t know if we can compete for a Nattie with his system. Time will tell. Not snarking at all but how many years does JH get if he can’t get to the SEC championship or get in the playoffs?

 

[Orange.]

Oh dear, I admire your bravery.

No one is mad at our @Lucy. Or at least I'm not. It's ok to have said. I don't think it's correct, and I think she may even change her mind about it. But it's a fair and somewhat instructive thing to think through.

 

[Orange.]

The only team that it hasn’t worked against is Georgia.

So far. It will happen.

 

[madtownvol]

No the system is a general philosophy. But each game is made up of a game plan put together by coaches who are human and executed by players who are human.
We can have a good system and still have coaches get too conservative and players who execute poorly.
Not every loss is indicative of a system not good enough to work.

Quick question. Who gets hired, fired, praised, condemned, given raises and so on. Coaches or systems? Why have I never an AD or GM state that we are keeping our current head coach but firing "the system"?

Is GA paying 13 million a year for Kirby Smart or a general philosophy and if the latter, who needs Smart (or Heupel)?

Obviously, "a system" is an approach to making and executing game plans. If the game plan and execution consistently falter, that is a problem with the system that a COACH has implemented.

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

Amazingly enough I knew all of that! I like JH a lot I just don’t know if we can compete for a Nattie with his system. Time will tell. Not snarking at all but how many years does JH get if he can’t get to the SEC championship or get in the playoffs?

He's just now filling out the roster with his guys and it's probably the first season where he didn't have to take some guys out of the portal just to create survivable depth. They have a great chance to make the playoffs this season, especially with it being expanded. His system on offense has already proven itself, but you can't overcome vast talent differences on that alone. The defense obviously plays a huge part and has been making strides. The defense was miles behind on depth and talent in 2022, so the offense had to carry the team. The offense took a step back with Milton and the defense took a step forward, so they were a good but not great team. Things seem to be lining up on both sides of the ball this year, so hopefully the program takes that next step this year. There's no doubt that the program overall has progressed in some way every year under Heupel...most notably the talent on the roster.

 

[Lucy]

He's just now filling out the roster with his guys and it's probably the first season where he didn't have to take some guys out of the portal just to create survivable depth. They have a great chance to make the playoffs this season, especially with it being expanded. His system on offense has already proven itself, but you can't overcome vast talent differences on that alone. The defense obviously plays a huge part and has been making strides. The defense was miles behind on depth and talent in 2022, so the offense had to carry the team. The offense took a step back with Milton and the defense took a step forward, so they were a good but not great team. Things seem to be lining up on both sides of the ball this year, so hopefully the program takes that next step this year. There's no doubt that the program overall has progressed in some way every year under Heupel...most notably the talent on the roster.

Great post. Thanks a lot. JH is in the unenviable position that Kellie and now Kim C. Was/are in. The best program in the country is your close neighbor.
Would agree program has progressed. Just wonder if we find there is a ceiling either JH or KC’s systems reach are we as a fan base okay with that. Way too early on this discussion for either coach but it is the off season and one’s mind does wander.
Finally, I know Milton was not an accomplished college quarterback but goodness it was fun to watch those down the field throws!!

 

[Orange.]

Great post. Thanks a lot. JH is in the unenviable position that Kellie and now Kim C. Was/are in. The best program in the country is your close neighbor.
Would agree program has progressed. Just wonder if we find there is a ceiling either JH or KC’s systems reach are we as a fan base okay with that. Way too early on this discussion for either coach but it is the off season and one’s mind does wander.
Finally, I know Milton was not an accomplished college quarterback but goodness it was fun to watch those down the field throws!!

Really, we don't know what changes Heupel might make if he lands multiple consecutive Top-10 recruiting classes, much less multiple Top-2 classes, which is what he is competing against now with more than one opponent. But we are already beating the championship-winning teams out for some recruits now! My impression is that Heupel will just continue to innovate as the talent improves.

What is really crazy to imagine is the possibility of Heupel's high-scoring offense with the best players installed -- combined with a star-studded elite-talent defense! The pressure that would put on opponents would be absolutely nuts. A nightmare for them. Let's hope.

 

[volbeast33]

Great post. Thanks a lot. JH is in the unenviable position that Kellie and now Kim C. Was/are in. The best program in the country is your close neighbor.
Would agree program has progressed. Just wonder if we find there is a ceiling either JH or KC’s systems reach are we as a fan base okay with that. Way too early on this discussion for either coach but it is the off season and one’s mind does wander.
Finally, I know Milton was not an accomplished college quarterback but goodness it was fun to watch those down the field throws!!

The biggest issue facing all three is recruiting…. JH’s recruiting is trending toward elite level…. KJH was not trending up which was her downfall…. We will have to see what type of recruiter that CKC proves to be.

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

Great post. Thanks a lot. JH is in the unenviable position that Kellie and now Kim C. Was/are in. The best program in the country is your close neighbor.
Would agree program has progressed. Just wonder if we find there is a ceiling either JH or KC’s systems reach are we as a fan base okay with that. Way too early on this discussion for either coach but it is the off season and one’s mind does wander.
Finally, I know Milton was not an accomplished college quarterback but goodness it was fun to watch those down the field throws!!

I think Heupel's offense has shown it can put up points against elite competition. The only one it has consistently struggled against is UGA's defense...but almost every other team UGA has played struggled as well. The key to having the team be consistently near the top will be to get the defense to a top 20 or top 15 level.

I'm really eager to see CKC's system at work. Watching them the last couple of years, I've just wanted to see them play more aggressive. I don't doubt that we'll see that now. If they can add a couple more from the portal to provide the depth they'll need to keep that up an entire game...I think they'll do really well. That style of play alone will probably trip up a few opponents. She's going to cut her players loose to take a lot of shots and I think that type of confidence she'll have in her players to do that will be such a huge motivation for them. Hopefully DW cuts ticket prices and comes up with some creative ways to get more butts in the seats for games. They deserve a packed house and renewed excitement from the fans.

 

[Lucy]

Really, we don't know what changes Heupel might make if he lands multiple consecutive Top-10 recruiting classes, much less multiple Top-2 classes, which is what he is competing against now with more than one opponent. But we are already beating the championship-winning teams out for some recruits now! My impression is that Heupel will just continue to innovate as the talent improves.

What is really crazy to imagine is the possibility of Heupel's high-scoring offense with the best players installed -- combined with a star-studded elite-talent defense! The pressure that would put on opponents would be absolutely nuts. A nightmare for them. Let's hope.

Innovation and flexibility are keys in my mind! Sometimes coaches can be so stubborn! I remember Pat spending the summer watching different offenses even when she was at the top of the game.
I feel for JH though, Georgia basically had an NFL defensive line playing. You can innovate all you want but no one/no system was going to have a lot of success against that group.

 

[Volfaninfl2]

I am not sure pointing actual losses is a negative outlook versus stating you know facts. Bringing this back to the lvs, Kellie beat Texas, Alabama, and Texas A&M in the past but that did not lessen the damages of more recent losses. You have get those wins consistently, year after year. Heupel has definitely brought the program back from a low point but, if the aspirations is being an NC contender, these next two seasons are going to be pivotal.
His

Agree, but Kellie beat both Alabama and Texas A&M in the SEC Tournament this year, we haven’t played Texas since we beat them in the 2021/22 season.

It’s the two teams that have won the last three National Championships, SC and LSU, obviously both in our conference, that we have beaten in the past, (and came extremely close to beating unbeaten SC this year), that we have not beaten consistently.

Again, Pat won eight National Championships in 38 years. I’ll have to look it up again, but Tara went around 30 years between her first National Championship and her second. Looking at what I read here on Volnation, many here would have wanted to fire both those special Coaches, at some point in their careers, for no longer being able to “get over the hump”.

 

[Terrells Bay88]

Agree, but Kellie beat both Alabama and Texas A&M in the SEC Tournament this year, we haven’t played Texas since we beat them in the 2021/22 season.

It’s the two teams that have won the last three National Championships, SC and LSU, obviously both in our conference, that we have beaten in the past, (and came extremely close to beating unbeaten SC this year), that we have not beaten consistently.

Again, Pat won eight National Championships in 38 years. I’ll have to look it up again, but Tara went around 30 years between her first National Championship and her second. Looking at what I read here on Volnation, many here would have wanted to fire both those special Coaches, at some point in their careers, for no longer being able to “get over the hump”.

It was around 30 years between Tara 2nd National championship and her 3rd but I get your point.

 

[TJSVOLS]

Amazingly enough I knew all of that! I like JH a lot I just don’t know if we can compete for a Nattie with his system. Time will tell. Not snarking at all but how many years does JH get if he can’t get to the SEC championship or get in the playoffs?

Except for a crazy meltdown against sc they would have been playing for a nc in 2022.

 

[butchna]

Yeah. I didn’t think about it being Friday and the flying monkeys will get all “liquored up” (to quote the best Vol ever which I shouldn’t know anything about because I obviously hate men’s sports in spite of 30+ years of dragging myself from Nashville to Neyland) and lose their collective minds. This will be in spite of the fact that what I said is true and I really like J. Heupel and think he is our best football coach since Phil.
I think I’ll just refer them to Mad’s post re: SEC losses. !

SC is not a “top team” and you’re calling others (with superior information) “flying monkeys”. You’re a case study in reduced facilities.

 

[volbeast33]

Agree, but Kellie beat both Alabama and Texas A&M in the SEC Tournament this year, we haven’t played Texas since we beat them in the 2021/22 season.

It’s the two teams that have won the last three National Championships, SC and LSU, obviously both in our conference, that we have beaten in the past, (and came extremely close to beating unbeaten SC this year), that we have not beaten consistently.

Again, Pat won eight National Championships in 38 years. I’ll have to look it up again, but Tara went around 30 years between her first National Championship and her second. Looking at what I read here on Volnation, many here would have wanted to fire both those special Coaches, at some point in their careers, for no longer being able to “get over the hump”.

I think Kellie won enough on the court to possibly earn another year…. The biggest issue facing Kellie was the foundation(recruiting) had crumbled. It is the issue CKC is now facing.

 

[Volfaninfl2]

I think Kellie won enough on the court to possibly earn another year…. The biggest issue facing Kellie was the foundation(recruiting) had crumbled. It is the issue CKC is now facing.

Kellie was being outbid for players for the last 3 years when the LV basketball program was not included in Spyre with the men’s teams, now they are, a big boost for KC recruiting.

 

[volbeast33]

Kellie was being outbid for players for the last 3 years when the LV basketball program was not included in Spyre with the men’s teams, now they are, a big boost for KC recruiting.

I do agree that there were some issues or they wouldn’t have restructured it…. Kellie struggled very badly recruiting at her last power 5 job so I doubt it was all NIL related.

 

[rickyyrs]

Hate to point it out but Heupel has not been able to adjust enough against the top of the SEC. That is my worry about the new system. Works against the lesser teams but can we beat SC, Tx and LSU with it. Time will tell.

I think a lot of that has to do with lack of Talent when Heupel took over. Just like Kim is probaly going to struggle the first year. I do believe she will get talent to the Lady Vols.

 

[turbovol]

Kellie was being outbid for players for the last 3 years when the LV basketball program was not included in Spyre with the men’s teams, now they are, a big boost for KC recruiting.

If this is true, and I don't know that it is, then White could be said to have unfairly sacked Harper. You can't fire someone for poor recruiting--and then turn around and make changes to a system that was responsible for the poor recruiting in the first place.

 

[volfan102455]

And South Carolina when it really mattered in 2022 and then Florida, Missouri, Bama and GA again in 2023. KY gave a good scare to boot

Agree - many will say it was the QB change, but I think over time the good teams learn how to adjust.

 

[turbovol]

RE Heupel: No coach has some special "system" that's going to outfox opponents. What beats opponents is having better players and better execution. One can have schemes that are a little different--but opposing coaches catch on pretty quickly. We had a good team two years ago because we got excellent play from the quarterback and wideouts. Last year we had a less effective QB and wideouts and we were not as successful. Georgia and bama have been winning titles because they've got a lot of very good players.