Kyle Rittenhouse - The Truth in 11 Minutes

[ButchPlz]

Look, you brought up the combat silliness with your ridiculous American revolution and Kosovo comparison. Military training is required for military combat. How else do you want me to say it? But this wasn’t combat, no matter how you try to compare it as such (Kosovo, revolution, etc).

1. I don’t even know what you are trying to say here.
2. If someone has gone through police training or security training, they are obviously more qualified than Rittenhouse. You disagree?

And again, you choose not to provide definitions directly. What is training, and what is combat? You don't even choose to do that, therefore you can't define your own standards on the matter, therefore you are scoring a kid on standards you don't even understand. How is this difficult?

What does "police training" entail? You noted in another post that "de-escalation" is your standard to be considered "trained". In Wisconsin, de-escalation training for police is not required. Therefore, in many cases, police showing up to a situation would make them idiots, since they are "untrained". This is simply your logic, applied.

There's really no point in discussing this further. You clearly can't even agree with yourself internally what your foundation for discussion is, you haven't done research, you're ignorant of several points in history, and you're avoiding the simplest questions I ask.

 

[ButchPlz]

Police are absolutely trained in de-escalation. Whether they are good at it is a different question.

You are desperately reaching for whatever “if” you can find here that helps. You’ve gone from Kosovo, to the American Revolution, to the mafia, and now your personal training. I’m half wondering if you are trolling at this point.

I defer you to my other post and request that you take the time to do your own research before calling people "idiots".

 

[PEPPERJAX]

I mean eventually they will run out of buildings to burn right?

7/11s and Liquor stores are off limits to burn. Also IHOP and waffle house too.

 

[rjd970]

He fired no random shots. Idk where you got that from?

Perhaps “random” was the wrong word. But there were certainly stray shots in the course of the confrontation. With training you have to wonder how many less of those there would have been.

 

[Vol8188]

Perhaps “random” was the wrong word. But there were certainly stray shots in the course of the confrontation. With training you have to wonder how many less of those there would have been.

Trained people miss too. I'm impressed he was as accurate as he was given the situation.

 

[rjd970]

I defer you to my other post and request that you take the time to do your own research before calling people "idiots".

Which police specifically, are not trained in de-escalation?

Yes, Rittenhouse was an idiot and I stand by it.

 

[C-south]

The problem is generally applying a philosophy to a specific situation. In this situation you have a teenage kid with no training in de-escalation, and I would assume no formal firearm training. Hell, he even fired random shots during the confrontation. What if he would have hit a shop owner defending his property or reporter? Would he be culpable then? Would he still be lauded as a civic minded community guy? Thank god no one innocent was hurt, right?

At the end of the day in this situation Rittenhouse would have been better off just staying home. Not even sure why that is debatable.

lol. So how do you “de-escalate” a person who has a gun pointed at you or a guy trying to bash your head in with a skateboard?

 

[Vol8188]

Which police specifically, are not trained in de-escalation?

Yes, Rittenhouse was an idiot and I stand by it.

Can you tell me how de-escalation training would have helped?

 

[RockyTop85]

Funny they were there with Kyle and his group during the riots...guess it just slipped their mind much like their insurance claim figures.

This was established at the trial through photographs that were used to cross examine the car lot owners. They offered an explanation for it. The jury can decide whether it was credible.

I didn’t think they were very credible, but it’s insane to say that its misconduct for the prosecutor to put disputed facts before the jury. That’s precisely what the jury is there for.

 

[VolnJC]

This was established at the trial through photographs that were used to cross examine the car lot owners. They offered an explanation for it. The jury can decide whether it was credible.

I didn’t think they were very credible, but it’s insane to say that its misconduct for the prosecutor to put disputed facts before the jury. That’s precisely what the jury is there for.

They also weren't credible on the insurance or on the texts between them and Kyle... might not be misconduct but they did a poor job of prepping their witnesses...some like Gaige hurt their case and probably shouldn't have been called

 

[ButchPlz]

Can you tell me how de-escalation training would have helped?

I merely asked because that standard is what he uses to call someone an "idiot" for showing up at a situation, when the state in question does not require de-escalation training and the whole thing that started this off was that the "training" provided to the Kenosha PD was apparently just a rubber-stamp process. He's effectively calling the law enforcement he thinks people should depend on "idiots". So instead of relying on "idiots", they should rely on other "idiots".

 

[Vol8188]

This was established at the trial through photographs that were used to cross examine the car lot owners. They offered an explanation for it. The jury can decide whether it was credible.

I didn’t think they were very credible, but it’s insane to say that its misconduct for the prosecutor to put disputed facts before the jury. That’s precisely what the jury is there for.

What about the prosecutor directly lying about what constitutes self-defense and that you cannot claim self defense against an unarmed man?

That seems like misconduct.

 

[KB5252]

They also weren't credible on the insurance or on the texts between them and Kyle... might not be misconduct but they did a poor job of prepping their witnesses...some like Gaige hurt their case and probably shouldn't have been called

They felt they had to put Gaige on the stand, they needed something to justify their dropping his other charges. It was an epic failure. While I don't think Kyle was particular smart, these guys, especially Rosenbaum were about as stupid as they come.

 

[bamawriter]

I'm really put off by Schroeder's decision to let jurors take the jury instructions home overnight. This shouldn't happen. He's really let this case get away from him.

 

[volbeast33]

The problem is generally applying a philosophy to a specific situation. In this situation you have a teenage kid with no training in de-escalation, and I would assume no formal firearm training. Hell, he even fired random shots during the confrontation. What if he would have hit a shop owner defending his property or reporter? Would he be culpable then? Would he still be lauded as a civic minded community guy? Thank god no one innocent was hurt, right?

At the end of the day in this situation Rittenhouse would have been better off just staying home. Not even sure why that is debatable.

Isn’t that bc the ones trained to do it we’re standing down and not doing anything about it? The community has to stand up when that happens.

 

[RockyTop85]

They also weren't credible on the insurance or on the texts between them and Kyle... might not be misconduct but they did a poor job of prepping their witnesses...some like Gaige hurt their case and probably shouldn't have been called

Which one is Gaige? I didn’t watch his testimony.

I don’t know that I know enough to agree or disagree with this. I saw the prosecutors do things that were bad. Drew objections. Get rightly called on the carpet. I saw Binger stumble through questioning on ammunition that he should have prepared for. Being a litigator means you have to be somewhat competent in a lot of different fields, not just the law. If you don’t know the difference between full metal jacket and hollow point, either don’t ask the question or learn it. So it’s not out of the question.

That said, I think this case is one that needed to be tried to have the jury determine fact from fabrication and apply the law. So putting all the facts out there and letting the jury sort it out isn’t necessarily the worst thing a prosecutor can do, under the circumstances. If he had just stuck to that instead of being sleazy when crossing the defendant I’d have a lot more respect for them, regardless of how it turned out.

 

[RikidyBones]

Sorry, I don’t remember what the question was before. I often type messages quickly and change them after the fact.

I haven’t seen anybody saying that attendance “damns” Kyle. I’ve seen people responding to that strawman and explicitly saying that it’s a mischaracterization. My understanding is they think that attendance was stupid, for everyone, but not criminal. I agree with that.

So, I don’t know why we would apply a standard to these guys that only exists because somebody tried to mischaracterize other people’s comments and make them seem facially absurd. Are you saying this facially absurd standard is the only way to justify your statement? That seems bad.

I don’t know why everything happened in that area for several nights in a row. I’m not familiar with Kenosha. Is it near where Blake was shot?

The testimony at trial, including from police and people who were defending the car lot, indicated that “mostly peaceful” was accurate initially, and that it became more like a riot as it got later and people who they suspected of being from out of town got there. The videos I remember showed protestors/rioters milling about and Kyle walking among them.

So, the evidence I’ve seen shows a mix of protestors, rioters, and gawkers in the area. I’m not saying the people who got shot were one or the other, like I said I legitimately don’t know what they were up to before chasing and trying to subdue Kyle after he shot Rosenbaum. It sounds like you don’t either.

So then are we just saying that the interaction with Kyle, however you want to characterize it, makes them bad?

I think it's fair to assume that a grouping at an irrelevant location has more malicious intent than arriving days after multiple incidents to assist in defending from destruction. There have been substantially more video showing Kyle's intent on being there and the purpose of his gun is glaringly clear.

I will attribute the act of blind siding someone with a skateboard who was walking/jogging toward police and fell as someone who is bad. Yes. In terms of the guy with a gun, he raised his gun to point it at Kyle and then go shot. Not before. We all agree that this is all self defense. Therefore, we all agree that he was being attacked without direct provocation. Because of that, we can safely say that the ones shot had a nefarious intent. Whether it was all night or just that moment is not relevant. They had the mentality to attack. One of them had the mentality to attack AFTER he was told by Rittenhouse that he is going to police. Instead of assisting to help escort, he engages and encouraged the attack of Rittenhouse by yelling "get him" several times.

All of these guys have violent crimes on their sheet, iirc. We have hindsight and can see that.

 

[RockyTop85]

I'm really put off by Schroeder's decision to let jurors take the jury instructions home overnight. This shouldn't happen. He's really let this case get away from him.

Did the defense object? I think that almost guarantees reversal of any conviction on appeal. They are not supposed to deliberate at home.

 

[hndog609]

Perhaps “random” was the wrong word. But there were certainly stray shots in the course of the confrontation. With training you have to wonder how many less of those there would have been.

I completely understand your concerns but have you availed yourself of how often the "trained professionals" miss in chaotic circumstances? (just one example)

NYPD Officers Fire 84 Shots At Suspect, Miss 83 Times

Now again, I'm not arguing for one second every time you pull the trigger in public you aren't assuming risk for any collateral damage no matter how justifiable the original reason for pulling that trigger might be. Putting the onus on KR (or indeed anyone) to be anything short of Francisco Scaramanga might be a bit unrealistic.

 

[Weezer]

The problem is generally applying a philosophy to a specific situation. In this situation you have a teenage kid with no training in de-escalation, and I would assume no formal firearm training. Hell, he even fired random shots during the confrontation. What if he would have hit a shop owner defending his property or reporter? Would he be culpable then? Would he still be lauded as a civic minded community guy? Thank god no one innocent was hurt, right?

At the end of the day in this situation Rittenhouse would have been better off just staying home. Not even sure why that is debatable.

Logically, everyone involved would have been better off staying at home. The people shot would have been better off if they hadn't attacked KR. But it happened. It doesn't appear KR instigated it. Simply carrying a weapon is not instigation.

 

[ButchPlz]

Logically, everyone involved would have been better off staying at home. The people shot would have been better off if they hadn't attacked KR. But it happened. It doesn't appear KR instigated it. Simply carrying a weapon is not instigation.

This needs to be repeated over and over and over again.

 

[RikidyBones]

Which one is Gaige? I didn’t watch his testimony.

I don’t know that I know enough to agree or disagree with this. I saw the prosecutors do things that were bad. Drew objections. Get rightly called on the carpet. I saw Binger stumble through questioning on ammunition that he should have prepared for. Being a litigator means you have to be somewhat competent in a lot of different fields, not just the law. If you don’t know the difference between full metal jacket and hollow point, either don’t ask the question or learn it. So it’s not out of the question.

That said, I think this case is one that needed to be tried to have the jury determine fact from fabrication and apply the law. So putting all the facts out there and letting the jury sort it out isn’t necessarily the worst thing a prosecutor can do, under the circumstances. If he had just stuck to that instead of being sleazy when crossing the defendant I’d have a lot more respect for them, regardless of how it turned out.

He's the one that was shot in the arm

 

[bamawriter]

Did the defense object? I think that almost guarantees reversal of any conviction on appeal. They are not supposed to deliberate at home.

They didn't formally object. Schroeder noted them shaking their heads, and he asked them what their issue was. They made mention of jurors researching the instructions on the internet, which is a thin reed. This all happened in front of the jury.

But the judge should not have put the defense in the position of needing to object. It's not fair to either side to make them object to something the jury was requesting in front of the jury.

This is teeing up an easy appeal if a conviction is handed down.

 

[VolnJC]

Which one is Gaige? I didn’t watch his testimony.

I don’t know that I know enough to agree or disagree with this. I saw the prosecutors do things that were bad. Drew objections. Get rightly called on the carpet. I saw Binger stumble through questioning on ammunition that he should have prepared for. Being a litigator means you have to be somewhat competent in a lot of different fields, not just the law. If you don’t know the difference between full metal jacket and hollow point, either don’t ask the question or learn it. So it’s not out of the question.

That said, I think this case is one that needed to be tried to have the jury determine fact from fabrication and apply the law. So putting all the facts out there and letting the jury sort it out isn’t necessarily the worst thing a prosecutor can do, under the circumstances. If he had just stuck to that instead of being sleazy when crossing the defendant I’d have a lot more respect for them, regardless of how it turned out.

The one that got shot in the bicep The only person who survived being shot by Kyle Rittenhouse takes the stand

 

[RikidyBones]

Did the defense object? I think that almost guarantees reversal of any conviction on appeal. They are not supposed to deliberate at home.

Yes they did.