"Lack of high school talent in TN"

[Rockytop1018]

I grew up in Longwood, FL (outside of Orlando) and for our local school, we have 3-4 teams every year. One was basically an all-star team where we traveled out of state to play. We played teams from Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, etc. Our running back was the punt, pass and kick champion for his age group. The coaches and teams were unbelievable.

Then I moved to TN when I was in the 8th grade and couldn't believe the difference. Now that I have kids, I've coached football from age 5 through 8th grade and the talent and interest is nowhere near where it was in FL in the late 70's. I'm sure it has only intensified since I left.

I agree 100 percent with you. A lot of it, as you mentioned, is the devotion to the sport. And even though Tennessee Volunteers fans are some of the most loyal and dedicated fans in all of sports, the interest in grooming high school players is just not up to par with other Southern states. Tennessee is slowly catching up, but there is a long way to go. When in Mississippi, it was amazing to see towns with only 10, 000 people pack in every Friday night to fill a stadium that seated every person in town. And when I played, coaches held "optional" offseason workouts during the mandated dead periods, but every soul on the team knew they better attend or they wouldn't play come fall. 24/7, 365 in states like that. The amazing thing to me too is that Tennessee high school football made Michigan football look tame. Hence why I laugh at my Michigan friends who think the SEC's dominance will eventually go back to the Big 10.

 

[jacdaniels]

there's plenty of talent in Tennessee and obviously Jones has enough friggin' sense to know it!

 

[Afvol86]

The 2014 class will be loaded in Tennessee. Miss state/memphis/South Carolina are just a few teams coming after Anderson County OL Matt Pyke. (6'3" 290) He was put on the All American Combine Team (Scout) earlier the month.

 

[82_VOL_83]

I don't know about other states with comparable population as TN, but I'm a high school tennis coach and I see something that is hurting our athletic talent in all sports. Namely, private Christian Academies and, to a lesser extent, home schooling. I live in Chattanooga, and there are at least six private Christian Academies in our area (Notre Dame, Boyd Buchanon, Chattanooga Christian, Grace, Silverdale, Collegedale). All of these schools play in small districts-- some of them have to play up, but only Chattanooga Christian is even in 3A (for football).

All of those schools steal players from the traditional public schools in our area. I'm not talking illegally, either. Just middle class parents that want to send their kids to mostly white, Christian schools. They stay in the smaller districts and win lots of championships in lots of different sports, but those titles are pretty meaningless.

Red Bank, for instance was hovering around 1400-1500 students when I was there: it is now smaller than 800. Part of this has to do with a new school on Signal Mountain, but SM is essentially a small, white, affluent academy as well-- lets face it, if you can afford to live on the Mountain . . .

At any rate, the best athletes are not practicing every day with the best athletes. Again, I don't care what sport we're talking, this is the case. If all those PCA's would go away, you'd have much more competition in the public schools, we'd have more schools in the biggest classifications, and we'd have much better talent in Tennessee in all sports.

Bud, if the demographic of Chatanooga is such that there are enough people that can drop 14 to 20k per year to send their kids to private school, let em go. I happen to think that you are barking up the wrong tree so to speak.

 

[82_VOL_83]

I grew up in Tennessee and the difference in youth sports in Georgia (where I live now) and what is in Tennessee is night and day. This goes for all sports.

The tax structure in GA allows for organized MS sports. The tax structure in TN doesn't. I will take recruiting out of state in lieu of GA's tax structure ANY DAY.

 

[iluvsmesumdooley]

Most of our talent is out in the western part of the state and the middle - closer to Tuscaloosa than Knoxville. We only have first dibs on the cornpones.

 

[rocky top buzz]

The tax structure in GA allows for organized MS sports. The tax structure in TN doesn't. I will take recruiting out of state in lieu of GA's tax structure ANY DAY.

What?

 

[rocky top buzz]

I grew up in Tennessee and the difference in youth sports in Georgia (where I live now) and what is in Tennessee is night and day. This goes for all sports.

I grew up in Peachtree City GA (MHS class of 2000) and I didn't experience this at all. I played little league, they had trouble fielding enough teams for fall ball. Soccer was VERY popular, MHS won 2 or 3 state championships in soccer while I was there and our HS football team was terrible, they still are except for an occasional good season. Maybe that has changed in the 10 years since I left, but I don't know.

This also all begs the question of what are we doing as society as a whole? Should we really be putting our kids through hell to become star athletes when even still they have a 1/100 chance of earning a college scholarship? With the talk of the private Christian schools hurting football development, umm, isn't a good education more important than developing football talent?

 

[1967]

Already this year at least 3 of top 7 and probably more. NEXT year is a lotta talent in Tennessee and if we could get that plus the Legacy players - great class...

 

[bamawriter]

Tennessee is like three different states when it comes to football. Kids in Middle and West are just as close to other schools as they are to UT, if not closer, and many don't grow up UT fans.

 

[volsincebirth]

Tennessee is like three different states when it comes to football. Kids in Middle and West are just as close to other schools as they are to UT, if not closer, and many don't grow up UT fans.

I disagree with this 100%. I live in west TN and there are way more TN fans then any other schools. I know families here that are 4th or 5th generation UT fans. Now there are also a lot bandwagon fans like everywhere else. But true Tn fans outnumber other schools two to one. Our stores have more UT gear then other schools. Even in Memphis and Nashville TN is the dominant school.

 

[hmanvolfan]

I disagree with this 100%. I live in west TN and there are way more TN fans then any other schools. I know families here that are 4th or 5th generation UT fans. Now there are also a lot bandwagon fans like everywhere else. But true Tn fans outnumber other schools two to one. Our stores have more UT gear then other schools. Even in Memphis and Nashville TN is the dominant school.

You sir are correct.

 

[rocky top buzz]

I disagree with this 100%. I live in west TN and there are way more TN fans then any other schools. I know families here that are 4th or 5th generation UT fans. Now there are also a lot bandwagon fans like everywhere else. But true Tn fans outnumber other schools two to one. Our stores have more UT gear then other schools. Even in Memphis and Nashville TN is the dominant school.

I will second that. I drive all over this state and all the small towns in middle, east, and west are like 90% UT. I would say Nashville is probably 60% UT but the suburbs are muxh higher.

People move a lot these days so you do have a lot of crossover fans. Look at Atlanta. I bet the UGA fans are around 50% and that's because there are a ton of tranplants their who maintain their allegiance. I see a ton of other sec schools tags on the road down there, plus you have osu and penn state alums too.

All in all, UT has great fan support from Mountain City to Memphis and points in between.

 

[Cyclopskiller]

There's a lot of UT fans down here in Huntsville, I imagine I'll start noticing more when we get back to winning..

 

[jps2194]

The tax structure in GA allows for organized MS sports. The tax structure in TN doesn't. I will take recruiting out of state in lieu of GA's tax structure ANY DAY.

I'm assuming you are referring to the fact that Knoxville does not have a true middle school football program. First, while that is true for Knoxville, that is not true for the entire state. Secondly, although it is not an official team sponsored by the middle school, that does not mean that there is not middle school football. Football is played through the 8th grade in every community. In Knoxville, it is called jr. midget football and games are played at the local high schools on Saturday mornings. There are two divisions, a more serious division and more of a rec league. Furthermore, in the past we have put together all star teams from Powell, Farragut, Fulton, Central, etc. and played in various tournaments. My kid is in high school now, so I don't know if it has been done the past two years.

If I misunderstood your post, please explain because I don't understand what you mean. Just because our MS do not field teams, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

 

[TnTom]

I'll just add this....

CBJ was in Memphis yesterday, so he thinks its important. You gotta give him credit, he is working the state.

Go Vols...

 

[82_VOL_83]

What?

With TN's lack of a state income tax, we will never generate the income at a state level that GA does. There isn't enough money to keep the teacher's union happy and have middle school sports in TN.....at least that is the case in Knox county. Kids that play football basically pay for everything here. I know they pay for everything in baseball. The school system gives little or no money to HS sports anymore. If there was more tax revenue, that money might find it's way to the MS level.

I grew up in Peachtree City GA (MHS class of 2000) and I didn't experience this at all. I played little league, they had trouble fielding enough teams for fall ball. Soccer was VERY popular, MHS won 2 or 3 state championships in soccer while I was there and our HS football team was terrible, they still are except for an occasional good season. Maybe that has changed in the 10 years since I left, but I don't know.

This also all begs the question of what are we doing as society as a whole? Should we really be putting our kids through hell to become star athletes when even still they have a 1/100 chance of earning a college scholarship? With the talk of the private Christian schools hurting football development, umm, isn't a good education more important than developing football talent?

:good!:

In the long run this attitude is better for the state than pigeon holing a kid at the MS level into one sport. I know when my oldest came through school, when he was trying out for baseball the coach found out he played ice hockey also and basically cut him for it. If CBJ can get the two or three stellar athletes from the State and then recruit well elsewhere, I am all for it.

For the purposes of this conversation, I believe that there is in state talent, just not the numbers that the more climate friendly states have. The climate (3 seasons outdoors a year instead of 1), the lack of adequate numbers of good coaches, the lack of school funding, and the lower population all attribute to our overall numbers being low.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Tennessee is like three different states when it comes to football. Kids in Middle and West are just as close to other schools as they are to UT, if not closer, and many don't grow up UT fans.

I disagree with this 100%. I live in west TN and there are way more TN fans then any other schools. I know families here that are 4th or 5th generation UT fans. Now there are also a lot bandwagon fans like everywhere else. But true Tn fans outnumber other schools two to one. Our stores have more UT gear then other schools. Even in Memphis and Nashville TN is the dominant school.

The schools that the kids go to are a direct reflection of the recruiting effort put forth by previous coaches. With coaching turnover, an absence of just 5 years from an area can turn an entire group of kids away from UT. I think that CBJ is going to make a difference in the state. I know CPF frowned on instate kids unless they were "top" talent, Spliff wasn't here long enough to wet his pants and CDD just didn't get it done and I think now that the stories are coming out, pissed off some HS coaches. So we have had a rather large amount of time that UT just hasn't been on a kids radar because no one has been to see him, his coaches, or his school.

 

[82_VOL_83]

I'm assuming you are referring to the fact that Knoxville does not have a true middle school football program. First, while that is true for Knoxville, that is not true for the entire state. Secondly, although it is not an official team sponsored by the middle school, that does not mean that there is not middle school football. Football is played through the 8th grade in every community. In Knoxville, it is called jr. midget football and games are played at the local high schools on Saturday mornings. There are two divisions, a more serious division and more of a rec league. Furthermore, in the past we have put together all star teams from Powell, Farragut, Fulton, Central, etc. and played in various tournaments. My kid is in high school now, so I don't know if it has been done the past two years.

If I misunderstood your post, please explain because I don't understand what you mean. Just because our MS do not field teams, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

You are correct and I stand somewhat corrected. However, there isn't an "organized" MS level program in Knox cnty. I don't know that there ever really would be since you have a ton of MS schools that feed the mega HS (1200 plus kids). There may not be enough kids at a given MS to actually field a team. All I am saying is that if our Tax revenue was higher, there possibly would be more of an opportunity to get kids with quality coaches at an earlier level. Yes dads are good and sometimes great coaches. Hell I coached for 19 years. However, I have seen some REALLY BAD parent coaches also.

I think another problem is that the HS are just too big. When you have one team per 1200 - 1500 kids vs one team per 600 - 800 kids, you cut the number of kids getting playing time in half. There has to be a way for States like TN with a smaller tax base and a smaller population to get more kids on the field with quality instruction. I just don't know how.

As a caveat, I am fine with how our tax structure is and am in NO WAY advocating higher taxes. However, having had two kids go through the system in Knox cnty, I know for a fact that there is more that we could do with the funding we do have.

 

[jps2194]

You are correct and I stand somewhat corrected. However, there isn't an "organized" MS level program in Knox cnty. I don't know that there ever really would be since you have a ton of MS schools that feed the mega HS (1200 plus kids). There may not be enough kids at a given MS to actually field a team. All I am saying is that if our Tax revenue was higher, there possibly would be more of an opportunity to get kids with quality coaches at an earlier level. Yes dads are good and sometimes great coaches. Hell I coached for 19 years. However, I have seen some REALLY BAD parent coaches also.

I think another problem is that the HS are just too big. When you have one team per 1200 - 1500 kids vs one team per 600 - 800 kids, you cut the number of kids getting playing time in half. There has to be a way for States like TN with a smaller tax base and a smaller population to get more kids on the field with quality instruction. I just don't know how.

As a caveat, I am fine with how our tax structure is and am in NO WAY advocating higher taxes. However, having had two kids go through the system in Knox cnty, I know for a fact that there is more that we could do with the funding we do have.

I understand your point. I think the only real difference between the "organized" MS program and what we have is coaches and who pays for the uniforms. Middle schools do have basketball with a MS teacher that coaches the team. I'm not 100% sure if they get extra money for coaching or not. Plus, the schools provide the uniforms. For football, the coaches are obviously dads who volunteer their time and the parents have to pay for the uniforms through fees. The major middle schools have plenty of kids, but smaller ones would not and they usually go to the nearest community rec league and play.

You are correct that the level of coaching varies greatly. I will say after coaching for three years for middle school aged kids (grade 6,7,8), there are some outstanding coaches out there. For example, Todd Kelly (former UT and NFL player) was a coach when his son Todd Kelly jr. was in middle school. There are also a lot of other great coaches without Kelly's credentials.

Having said all of that, a more formal school sponsored program would definitely help.

To me, it boils down to quality coaches. I've seen some horrible coaches and some great ones. Coaches that take the time to teach kids the fundamentals and help develop a passion for the game is what is most important. I've seen some great examples of this.

Of course, I've seen the complete opposite too. My youngest son played for a coach that was only interested in "daddy ball". His son played QB and was probably the 5th best QB on the team. We ran the spread option with a QB that should be playing O-line while we had a kid who could throw the ball unbelievably well and could run even better. This is when kids lose interest and become disgusted with the game.

Finding quality coaches is the key.

 

[bamawriter]

I disagree with this 100%. I live in west TN and there are way more TN fans then any other schools. I know families here that are 4th or 5th generation UT fans. Now there are also a lot bandwagon fans like everywhere else. But true Tn fans outnumber other schools two to one. Our stores have more UT gear then other schools. Even in Memphis and Nashville TN is the dominant school.

I said "many", I did not say "all" or even "most".

That being said, I think Tennessee (at least Middle and West TN) is one of the more diverse states in the South when it comes to college fandom. The Vols don't have a monopoly on the state to the degree that Bama/Auburn, Ole Miss/MSU, Arkansas, LSU, etc have in their home states.

And that is a credit to the state of Tennessee. People move to places like Nashville because of the solid jobs available and the quality of life in the area. But that also means that a lot of kids don't grow up in Volunteer households.

 

[volinSmyrna]

tennessee produces some exceptional players, but tennessee does not produce enough. in short, that's the problem. that 1998 team had all kinds of talent not from tennessee. here are a list of recruits who made the rivals 250 list in recent years and were from the state of tennessee. if not indicated in parentheses, the player signed with tennessee.

2012
chad voytik (pittsburgh)
drae bowles
jovon robinson (auburn)
brian kimbrow (vandy)
graham shuler (stanford)
caleb azubike (vandy)

2011
antonio richardson
cameron clear

2010
jacques smith
barry brunetti (west virginia)
keiwone malone (alabama)

2009
marlon brown (georgia)
austin long (georgia)

2008
barrett jones (alabama)
aaron douglas

2007
bj coleman
chris donald
rashad mason (north carolina)
harrison smith (notre dame)
golden tate (notre dame)
alex watkins (alabama)

2006
mike berry (auburn)
jacques mcclendon
brandon warren (fsu)

in 2013, jalen ramsey, frank herron, cornelius elder, christian morris, jason carr, jalen reeves-mabin, and austin sanders are in the rivals 250.

reeves-mabin, carr, and sanders are current tennessee commits

"Playing Devil's Advocate here" as I do think we should lock down our State's best every year.

Who on that list there (that we didn't get) do you wish we would have gotten based on his college career. I'm not even counting B. Jones to Bama since he was a 3rd generation legacy and we had ZERO shot at him. Golden Tate would be the only one off that list I would want.

Now the 2 names that jump out that aren't on the list are Hightower and P. Willis. Neither of them would have made the Rivals 250, but were in-state kids that UT didn't even take a sniff at. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

Now this year's class is impressive on paper, but will we look back in 5-6 years and shrug our shoulders and say "oh well"?

 

[Volosaurus rex]

I said "many", I did not say "all" or even "most".

That being said, I think Tennessee (at least Middle and West TN) is one of the more diverse states in the South when it comes to college fandom. The Vols don't have a monopoly on the state to the degree that Bama/Auburn, Ole Miss/MSU, Arkansas, LSU, etc have in their home states.

And that is a credit to the state of Tennessee. People move to places like Nashville because of the solid jobs available and the quality of life in the area. But that also means that a lot of kids don't grow up in Volunteer households.

Depending on how one wishes to spin it, I suppose that one could characterize residents of Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana as having more "provincial" attitudes. On the other hand, there is no question that Nashville is far more cosmopolitan, in terms of ethnic diversity, than it was 40 years ago. I believe, however, that the diversity of college allegiances to which you refer is an artifact of Tennessee's quirky geography more than anything else. It is 556 miles, via interstate, from Memphis to Bristol. The driving distance from Memphis to Knoxville alone is 400 miles.

Although the caliber of football certainly is not comparable now, the closest geographical analog may be Florida, which stretches north to south, from Tallahassee to Miami alone, for somewhere between 485 and 517 miles, depending on which route you take.

 

[jps2194]

"Playing Devil's Advocate here" as I do think we should lock down our State's best every year.

Who on that list there (that we didn't get) do you wish we would have gotten based on his college career. I'm not even counting B. Jones to Bama since he was a 3rd generation legacy and we had ZERO shot at him. Golden Tate would be the only one off that list I would want.

Now the 2 names that jump out that aren't on the list are Hightower and P. Willis. Neither of them would have made the Rivals 250, but were in-state kids that UT didn't even take a sniff at. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

Now this year's class is impressive on paper, but will we look back in 5-6 years and shrug our shoulders and say "oh well"?

How about Randall Cobb. He's not even on the list, but had an outstanding career at UK and he was from ALCOA.

 

[volsincebirth]

And that is a credit to the state of Tennessee. People move to places like Nashville because of the solid jobs available and the quality of life in the area.

Look as long as there is a demand for potted meat, natty lights, and trailer parks in Alabama, we are gonna produce it. But keep your fans there.