Lebron/Jordan

#126
#126
volfanbill said:
Had bron not picked up Bosh, Allen and already had Wade down there he wasn't going to win with the Heat. The situations are very similar
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He would have won with the Heat without those guys, but probably would not have won any Finals, I'll give you that. But he makes any team he joins an instant contender. The Heat got bounced in the first round after winning only 47 reg season games in 09-10. They made it to the Finals where they lost to the Mavs the following year. GS made it to the Finals with 73 reg season wins in 15-16, add KD make it to Finals again, but lose more reg season games
 
#127
#127
i was soft on Lebron before last season. he wins titles with Miami, but had to team up with the big 3 down there to get it done, comes back to Cle, and loses the c'ship to step and co.

but last year....watching that finals.....i don't know that i'd just go out and say he's better than MJ...but i'm fine with having the conversation at this point. he's great.
 
#128
#128
Johnnyreb#VFL said:
Generally speaking yeah. And I hated the whole hype of the decision. But it was much different circumstances.

Lebron left a team that could NOT compete without him. Cavs were not a playoff contender without Lebron. I think they won 30 games the following year. Cavs weren't getting it done. And joined a Heat team who hadn't been to the Finals since 2006.

KD took GS to 7 the year prior with OKC. KD left and OKC took Rockets to 7 this year and almost advanced to play the Spurs. So he had the pieces if he would have stuck it out. OKC is still formidable. And joined a GS team who had been to the Finals the previous 2 years and won 73 games the year prior lol.
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Not really. Both felt they couldn't win a championship where they were so left for a better situation. KD wins a championship, mission accomplished. Then he can do as Lebron and go for it elsewhere "alone."
 
#129
#129
Johnnyreb#VFL said:
He would have won with the Heat without those guys, but probably would not have won any Finals, I'll give you that. But he makes any team he joins an instant contender. The Heat got bounced in the first round after winning only 47 reg season games in 09-10. They made it to the Finals where they lost to the Mavs the following year. GS made it to the Finals with 73 reg season wins in 15-16, add KD make it to Finals again, but lose more reg season games
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Then he didn't have to leave for greener pastures. He wasn't winning a Finals with that Cleveland team and he's made demand after demand after demand in order to win with this team. The situations aren't any different big picture. Hi
 
#130
#130
Johnnyreb#VFL said:
He would have won with the Heat without those guys, but probably would not have won any Finals, I'll give you that. But he makes any team he joins an instant contender. The Heat got bounced in the first round after winning only 47 reg season games in 09-10. They made it to the Finals where they lost to the Mavs the following year. GS made it to the Finals with 73 reg season wins in 15-16, add KD make it to Finals again, but lose more reg season games
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Also, Chris Bosh averaged 18 ppg and almost 8 rpg in the first season of the big three. Let's not pretend it was all James. Let's also not forget that team still didn't win a title.
 
#131
#131
volfanbill said:
Also, Chris Bosh averaged 18 ppg and almost 8 rpg in the first season of the big three. Let's not pretend it was all James. Let's also not forget that team still didn't win a title.
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It's never all one player, tho. Even last year when Lebron had maybe the best finals ever, he still needed Kyrie to go off. Realistically, you need at least 6 guys to build a championship squad, but most often it takes about 8 solid-to-great players.
 
#132
#132
n_huffhines said:
It's never all one player, tho. Even last year when Lebron had maybe the best finals ever, he still needed Kyrie to go off. Realistically, you need at least 6 guys to build a championship squad, but most often it takes about 8 solid-to-great players.
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Exactly. OKC still didn't have enough, so KD left. First go round, Cleveland didn't have enough so Bron left and collected all the pieces he needed. He's doing the same with Cleveland now
 
#133
#133
volfanbill said:
Exactly. OKC still didn't have enough, so KD left. First go round, Cleveland didn't have enough so Bron left and collected all the pieces he needed. He's doing the same with Cleveland now
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But Bron left and Cleveland tanked. KD left and OKC still won 50+ and made a decent playoff run.
 
#134
#134
volfanbill said:
Exactly. OKC still didn't have enough, so KD left. First go round, Cleveland didn't have enough so Bron left and collected all the pieces he needed. He's doing the same with Cleveland now
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Well, KD had the best team down 3-1 in 2016. They had enough, they just blew it. With GSW losing Barnes, OKC was probably just one quality 3 and D guy away from being the best team in the west this year.

That being said, KD took control of his destiny. He didn't leave it up to the GM to bring in that one piece. He made sure he had the best squad around him.
 
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#137
#137
Johnnyreb#VFL said:
19 wins Cle post Lebron

55 wins OKC post Durant
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Nobody is saying KD is better than Lebron. I've lost track of your point with this.

KD did the same thing Lebron did. Left his original team to go win a championship surrounded by better talent. That was the start of this. Somehow you give Lebron a pass but think KD a coward. Yes, OKC was good but the GSW are better.
 
#138
#138
95 Vol Alum said:
Nobody is saying KD is better than Lebron. I've lost track of your point with this.

KD did the same thing Lebron did. Left his original team to go win a championship surrounded by better talent. That was the start of this. Somehow you give Lebron a pass but think KD a coward. Yes, OKC was good but the GSW are better.
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While I agree that you have to view LeBron and KD's moves to another team the same way to be logically consistent (i.e., either hold nothing against both of them or think both are cowards), I see how it is easier to hold something against KD given that he had another superstar on his team in Russell Westbrook. LeBron never had another player of that caliber while he was in Cleveland the first time.

People hold something against LeBron for moving because of 1) how he announced it and 2) lots of people have this notion he's supposed to act just like Jordan because he's been compared to Jordan since he was 16.
 
#139
#139
95 Vol Alum said:
Nobody is saying KD is better than Lebron. I've lost track of your point with this.

KD did the same thing Lebron did. Left his original team to go win a championship surrounded by better talent. That was the start of this. Somehow you give Lebron a pass but think KD a coward. Yes, OKC was good but the GSW are better.
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My point was that it is generally the same yes, but the circumstances were quite different.

Separate point- KD has some major heat on him to win a ring now. All of the pressure is on him to show up, beat Lebron, and gain his first title on a superior TEAM. Lebron is the underdog yet again which works to his advantage and alleviates some pressure.
 
#140
#140
There is a difference between what Lebron did and what KD did in the sense that GSW already had a title and a 73-win season. It was pretty much a sure thing that they'd be the best team this year.

Super teams sometimes fail miserably and we had no idea how the big 3 was going to fit in Miami. In fact, they had glaring weaknesses and redundancies that should have concerned everyone (for example, Wade and Lebron were both slashers and not great outside shooters).
 
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#141
#141
n_huffhines said:
There is a difference between what Lebron did and what KD did in the sense that GSW already had a title and a 73-win season. It was pretty much a sure thing that they'd be the best team this year.

Super teams sometimes fail miserably and we had no idea how the big 3 was going to fit in Miami. In fact, they had glaring weaknesses and redundancies that should have concerned everyone (for example, Wade and Lebron were both slashers and not great outside shooters).
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It also seemed like one component of the Big 3 in both places turned out to not be as great in that setup as people thought they would be. A good player, but clearly not equal to the other two. In Miami it was Bosh and in Cleveland it is Love.
 
#142
#142
05_never_again said:
It also seemed like one component of the Big 3 in both places turned out to not be as great in that setup as people thought they would be. A good player, but clearly not equal to the other two. In Miami it was Bosh and in Cleveland it is Love.
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You haven't watched this year huh?
 
#143
#143
BigZiti09 said:
MJ still the GOAT. There's no question what would happen if these two played in the same era. Lebron would be begging to play with him so he wouldn't have to go thru him.
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Jordan was trying to play with Barkley, it's not like he was that different
 
#144
#144
BigZiti09 said:
Punk move going to the warriors. For some reason he always gets a free pass. Westbrook proving he is a better player than KD in my book.

Lebron is a much better player than KD.
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Durant is better than Russ and it's not that close
 
#145
#145
volfanbill said:
Had bron not picked up Bosh, Allen and already had Wade down there he wasn't going to win with the Heat. The situations are very similar
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He won without Ray Allen. This is pure conjecture; the fact that he didn't win a title with an utter garbage team in Cleveland doesn't mean he wouldn't have won in Miami.
 
#146
#146
volfanbill said:
You haven't watched this year huh?
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He hasn't had a year in Cleveland, stats wise, as his best statistical year in Minnesota. I remember people being disappointed with Love's first year in Cleveland in particular, and they were disappointed with Bosh's first year in Miami too.

Lots of people thought, as they thought with Bosh, that you could take his best year with his old team and just bring those stats over to the new team. It doesn't quite work like that.
 
#147
#147
05_never_again said:
It also seemed like one component of the Big 3 in both places turned out to not be as great in that setup as people thought they would be. A good player, but clearly not equal to the other two. In Miami it was Bosh and in Cleveland it is Love.
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Well, in both cases Lebron is clearly the best player, but I would say Bosh and Wade and Love and Irving are more even than people seem to think. The problem is that all of them are big time scorers. That means that they are going to diminish each other's value.

It's not that Kyrie is better than Love, it's that he takes 4-5 more shots per game. It's not that Wade was better than Bosh, it's that he took 3-4 more shots per game.

The best big 3 ever is MJ, Pippen, and Rodman because they didn't get in each other's way and they all played elite D.
 
#148
#148
05_never_again said:
He hasn't had a year in Cleveland, stats wise, as his best statistical year in Minnesota. I remember people being disappointed with Love's first year in Cleveland in particular, and they were disappointed with Bosh's first year in Miami too.

Lots of people thought, as they thought with Bosh, that you could take his best year with his old team and just bring those stats over to the new team. It doesn't quite work like that.
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It never does. It's much easier to put up big numbers on crappy teams, which is why I generally take them with a grain of salt.
 
#149
#149
05_never_again said:
He hasn't had a year in Cleveland, stats wise, as his best statistical year in Minnesota. I remember people being disappointed with Love's first year in Cleveland in particular, and they were disappointed with Bosh's first year in Miami too.

Lots of people thought, as they thought with Bosh, that you could take his best year with his old team and just bring those stats over to the new team. It doesn't quite work like that.
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It doesn't work like that because it's nearly impossible to get 3 different guys 18 shots a night.
 
#150
#150
NashVol11 said:
It never does. It's much easier to put up big numbers on crappy teams, which is why I generally take them with a grain of salt.
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There is nothing easy about what Kevin Love did in Minnesota. Yeah, he got to take more shots in Minnesota but he was also extremely efficient. Kyrie, on the other hand, was pretty inefficient when he was the man.
 
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