Lebron/Jordan

#151
#151
n_huffhines said:
There is nothing easy about what Kevin Love did in Minnesota. Yeah, he got to take more shots in Minnesota but he was also extremely efficient. Kyrie, on the other hand, was pretty inefficient when he was the man.
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The rebound numbers were inflated, a la 2017 Westbrook
 
#153
#153
n_huffhines said:
There is nothing easy about what Kevin Love did in Minnesota. Yeah, he got to take more shots in Minnesota but he was also extremely efficient. Kyrie, on the other hand, was pretty inefficient when he was the man.
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And FTR I didn't say it was easy, just that he was never going to get those numbers on a good team
 
#155
#155
n_huffhines said:
It doesn't work like that because it's nearly impossible to get 3 different guys 18 shots a night.
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Well right, that's exactly my point. Love led the league in rebounding one year in Minnesota and had a couple years where he averaged 26 PPG. I remember when he went over to Cleveland a common talking point was "they just joined one of the best PGs in the game and LeBron with a guy who led the league in rebounding and can score," as if those stat lines would continue when they all played together.

A fallacious argument precisely for the reason you gave (it is hard for 3 great players to all put up huge stats), but one that was made a lot nonetheless.
 
#157
#157
I think we've gotten a little sidetracked. Maybe not. All roads prob point back to the OP. But...

Who is the better, all around, overall player? I think that GOAT title rubs people the wrong way, both Lebron and Jordan defenders ��. Not who would YOU rather have, but who has/had a more complete game???
 
#159
#159
And you all act like MJ was just a scorer, he could create and was a great rebounder for his position, and a great on ball defender and played passing lanes as well as anyone.
 
#161
#161
volfanbill said:
And he facilitated just fine. Even Pippen knows he was just feeding the machine with his comment
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That's what I meant by create, I forgot to put for others. My bad. Just like if LBJ wanted to he could go out and get 32+ every night. 2 different players asked to do different things to help their teams win.
 
#162
#162
BadJerry20 said:
That's what I meant by create, I forgot to put for others. My bad. Just like if LBJ wanted to he could go out and get 32+ every night. 2 different players asked to do different things to help their teams win.
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My bad. But spot on analysis
 
#163
#163
Johnnyreb#VFL said:
I think we've gotten a little sidetracked. Maybe not. All roads prob point back to the OP. But...

Who is the better, all around, overall player? I think that GOAT title rubs people the wrong way, both Lebron and Jordan defenders ��. Not who would YOU rather have, but who has/had a more complete game???
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I think Lebron is the more complete (well rounded?) player. That said, if I am down by a point in the closing seconds of a game, I would take Jordan over Lebron. Given the way the league is different today (no more hand checking, but also better athletes overall and far more complex defensive (zone based) schemes), its is impossible to say if Jordan would dominate like he did.
 
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#164
#164
AustinMem said:
I think Lebron is the more complete (well rounded?) player. That said, if I am down by a point in the closing seconds of a game, I would take Jordan over Lebron. Given the way the league is different today (no more hand checking, but also better athletes overall and far more complex defensive (zone based) schemes), its is impossible to say if Jordan would dominate like he did.
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And bingo was his name-o
 
#166
#166
AustinMem said:
I think Lebron is the more complete (well rounded?) player. That said, if I am down by a point in the closing seconds of a game, I would take Jordan over Lebron. Given the way the league is different today (no more hand checking, but also better athletes overall and far more complex defensive (zone based) schemes), its is impossible to say if Jordan would dominate like he did.
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Given the fact that guys in the 80s and 90s were allowed to practically mug you before a foul was called, I'd say he would have adapted to this era fairly quickly as well.

MJ:
Better Scorer
Better Defender
"Clutch" Gene

Lebron:
Better passer
Better rebounder

Push:
Athleticism
Basketball IQ

MJ>Lebron
But Lebron is still one hell of a player
 
#167
#167
Through_The_T said:
Given the fact that guys in the 80s and 90s were allowed to practically mug you before a foul was called, I'd say he would have adapted to this era fairly quickly as well.

MJ:
Better Scorer
Better Defender
"Clutch" Gene

Lebron:
Better passer
Better rebounder

Push:
Athleticism
Basketball IQ

MJ>Lebron
But Lebron is still one hell of a player
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I would say IQ and athleticism goes to Lebron and that defender and rebounder are a push.
 
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#170
#170
n_huffhines said:
I would say IQ and athleticism goes to Lebron and that defender and rebounder are a push.
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Jordan dunked from the free throw line with a shorter wingspan and being two inches shorter than Lebron. It's a push.

Lebron is highly touted for his basketball IQ, but there's no doubt that Jordan made the players around him better and knew what plays he could and couldn't make in certain situations (the pass to Steve Kerr against Utah when the defense collapsed down on him comes to mind). That's a push as well.

The thing that puts Jordan over the edge is his stone-cold killer attitude. Losing was not anywhere in his vocabulary, and the chip on his shoulder was the size of Everest.

None of this takes anything away from Lebron, though. I think he's firmly cemented himself as top 3 all-time (Jordan, Chamberlain, LBJ).
 
#172
#172
n_huffhines said:
I would say IQ and athleticism goes to Lebron and that defender and rebounder are a push.
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I'd give LBJ the slight edge in IQ, athleticism is a push for me both guys were/are freaks. Agree on defender MJ slightly better on ball and playing passing lanes, LBJ better help defender and more versatile. Agree on rebounding, both guys elite for their position.
 
#173
#173
Athleticism is pretty subjective. If strength is a variable then Lebron is no doubt more athletic
 
#174
#174
GBO18 said:
IQ? Why because he thinks he is the coach. Phil didn't run those teams MJ did.
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Wha?!

First of all, Phil Jackson won 5 titles without MJ.

Second, by natural evolution the game is more sophisticated today and you will hear a lot of people say that Lebron is the smartest player in the league.

Third, when MJ played for the Wizards, he was one of the least efficient scorers in the entire NBA. If he had such a high IQ, he would have stopped shooting. But no, he averaged a whopping 22 FGApg, 5 more than teammate Rip Hamilton. This is as bad as basketball IQ gets. He didn't know how to be anybody other than MJ.

Fourth, I question MJ's basketball IQ based on what he's done in the front office (but who knows, maybe Lebron is just as bad of a scout).
 
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#175
#175
n_huffhines said:
Fourth, I question MJ's basketball IQ based on what he's done in the front office (but who knows, maybe Lebron is just as bad of a scout).
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That's a totally fair point. It is hard to overstate how bad he has been as an executive.

His on-the-floor basketball IQ was one of the best ever, but apparently that has not translated to the front office whatsoever.
 
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