Let's compare Jesus and Muhammed (and debate homosexuality) (and Tombstone).

[g8terh8ter_eric]

but if in those times you were far better off spreading the word verbally than surely it was a waste of time to write down the old testament? god of all people must have known this and told as much to moses who wrote the old testament. moses disobeyed god?

It was written down to help preserve it, and yes God told Moses to write these things down. Yet, it's still a fact, that the majority of the people who passed down the Old Testament were illiterate and did it orally, because education in most of these towns didn't exist. That's why they were mostly all tradesmen.

 

[droski]

It was written down to help preserve it, and yes God told Moses to write these things down. Yet, it's still a fact, that the majority of the people who passed down the Old Testament were illiterate and did it orally, because education in most of these towns didn't exist. That's why they were mostly all tradesmen.

why would he tell moses to do it and not jesus? particurally considering far more people were literate during jesus' time.

 

[g8terh8ter_eric]

No. Therefore, good only on account of the results.

This is an "ends justify the means" outlook.

And why is you think the Law was prophesied to be fulfilled by the Son of God?? Because God had tried it MANY different ways, yet man still didn't get it. Therefore, he changed his approach, and offered to fulfill the law himself, versus having to watch man fail miserably at keeping it. Therefore, the things that God does for man, is inherently good.

 

[droski]

if god sees the future and sees the past why would he have to try a bunch of different things? wouldn't he know right away what the best way was?

 

[therealUT]

And why is you think the Law was prophesied to be fulfilled by the Son of God?? Because God had tried it MANY different ways, yet man still didn't get it. Therefore, he changed his approach, and offered to fulfill the law himself, versus having to watch man fail miserably at keeping it.

Omniscient. Omnipotent. Omnibenevolent. Immutable.

Therefore, the things that God does for man, is inherently good.

Still not inherently good. Still could only be qualified as good because god would be doing so to achieve a desired outcome.

If killing persons is "inherently good", then you could kill any person you so pleased.

 

[g8terh8ter_eric]

why would he tell moses to do it and not jesus? particurally considering far more people were literate during jesus' time.

Because that's not the way God chose to do it. Look, you can question it, I can question it, anyone can question it, but until things are finished here on this Earth, we will never know why God choose to do the things he did with Jesus, until we meet God. That's why Jesus spoke in parables to everyone, but taught his Disciples exactly he was trying to convey. It's not for me, or anyone to know right now, and I accept that, even though curiosity makes me want to know more.

 

[g8terh8ter_eric]

Omniscient. Omnipotent. Omnibenevolent. Immutable.


Still not inherently good. Still could only be qualified as good because god would be doing so to achieve a desired outcome.

If killing persons is "inherently good", then you could kill any person you so pleased.

If God is the Creator, which I believe he is, why can't he do with his creation as he wishes?? Why can't he put limits or laws on things for his creation not to do, even if he can do it himself?? God is good, I believe that with everything I am.

 

[g8terh8ter_eric]

BTW, nice discussion today guys, I got to go to the store. Might pick back up on this in a few days.

 

[MG1968]

if god sees the future and sees the past why would he have to try a bunch of different things? wouldn't he know right away what the best way was?

this is where the free will argument breaks down. If we have free will, how can our fate be known? If our fate is known, then everything we do leads us to that fate, therefore there is no free will.

 

[droski]

Because that's not the way God chose to do it. Look, you can question it, I can question it, anyone can question it, but until things are finished here on this Earth, we will never know why God choose to do the things he did with Jesus, until we meet God. That's why Jesus spoke in parables to everyone, but taught his Disciples exactly he was trying to convey. It's not for me, or anyone to know right now, and I accept that, even though curiosity makes me want to know more.

seems to me like an all knowing being would stick to what works and what doesn't rather than change strategies midstream.

 

[g8terh8ter_eric]

this is where the free will argument breaks down. If we have free will, how can our fate be known? If our fate is known, then everything we do leads us to that fate, therefore there is no free will.

Yet, people can get to the same destination, and take different roads. The destination is always death, but the question is, is that where the road ends for everything and everyone?? I personally think not, because that seems like a dreadfully lonely life.

 

[g8terh8ter_eric]

seems to me like an all knowing being would stick to what works and what doesn't rather than change strategies midstream.

It didn't work, which is why he changed it. Go look about how many chances God gave his people, and it was more than just a few, to straighten out themselves.

 

[droski]

It didn't work, which is why he changed it. Go look about how many chances God gave his people, and it was more than just a few, to straighten out themselves.

but since he's sees the future he knew it wouldn't work. seems counterproductive.

 

[MG1968]

but since he's sees the future he knew it wouldn't work. seems counterproductive.

it's these arguments that make me believe that Earth is not the only planet in the universe with intelligent life. It's ludicrous to believe that God would only pick this one place, out of all the cosmos, to put man, give him "free will" and see where it takes him.

 

[droski]

it's these arguments that make me believe that Earth is not the only planet in the universe with intelligent life. It's ludicrous to believe that God would only pick this one place, out of all the cosmos, to put man, give him "free will" and see where it takes him.

interesting. wonder if he told moses in those other worlds to not bother writing the old testament down since it was a waste of time. maybe one day we'll know.

 

[emainvol]

I've written two books; both are around 125 pages...neither took me fifteen years. I can and have written twenty to thirty pages in one sitting before.

Tolstoy wrote over four-thousand pages in less than ten years.

I have researched and churned out a 25 page, A+ paper in just over 36 hours before, and yes, I slept in there somewhere. In fairness to whatever the other side of this argument is, I was really lucky in my initial source searches.

 

[IPorange]

I have researched and churned out a 25 page, A+ paper in just over 24 hours before, and yes, I slept in there somewhere.

Ditto. Didn't sleep but 6 hours though.

 

[Tenacious D]

Yet, people can get to the same destination, and take different roads. The destination is always death, but the question is, is that where the road ends for everything and everyone?? I personally think not, because that seems like a dreadfully lonely life.

Were Calvinism true, the work on the cross was folly (if you believe in that sort of thing).

I am unwilling to surrender the ideal of free will so easily, though I could ultimately be proven wrong.
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[Tenacious D]

so God ordering Moses to kill all those Jews who were worshiping the Golden Calf was an inherently good thing to do?

also, there are deep theological divides between Jews and Christians. Jews think that Jesus was little more than just another prophet, and yet there you are placing them on equal footing with Christians.

Sorry if I'm confused here. But if Christianity is the one true faith, then there is simply no way you can stomach Judaism continuing to be practiced.

Why couldn't it be stomached, insofar as its any different than another religion which denies / subdues his deitiistic qualities?
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[Tenacious D]

Because that's not the way God chose to do it. Look, you can question it, I can question it, anyone can question it, but until things are finished here on this Earth, we will never know why God choose to do the things he did with Jesus, until we meet God. That's why Jesus spoke in parables to everyone, but taught his Disciples exactly he was trying to convey. It's not for me, or anyone to know right now, and I accept that, even though curiosity makes me want to know more.

That's an all-too-easy - and largely disagreeable - answer to a difficult question.

We can't know why God "did" certain things with Jesus? Pretty sure that some convincing evidence suggests otherwise, somewhere toward the last 1/3 of the book.

And, from where does this curiosity arise? Is it from your Spirit or flesh? From good or evil?
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[Tenacious D]

but there has never been an account of George Washington walking on water, nor of Abraham Lincoln shooting laser beams out of his arse.

Both true. Christianity, refuted?
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[VOLatile]

Yet, people can get to the same destination, and take different roads. The destination is always death, but the question is, is that where the road ends for everything and everyone?? I personally think not, because that seems like a dreadfully lonely life.

So, you're essentially afraid of a life with no predetermined purpose or afterlife?

Personally, I don't think there is an afterlife. I don't believe in a soul. I don't believe in heaven or hell.

I don't claim to know that there is no afterlife, I've just prepared myself mentally and accepted that I make my purpose on this Earth and it is not predetermined. I'm happy knowing that my body is composed of energy that was and will forever be used by other humans, plants, and animals for long after I die.

 

[rjd970]

I've read the Bible from cover to cover. One of my main wonders is why none of the characters, despite sometimes having a direct line to the all mighty, didn't seem to know anything outside of their immediate surroundings in the middle east. I don't know, kind of hurts the credibility that any of it is true.

 

[gsvol]

Yet, people can get to the same destination, and take different roads. The destination is always death, but the question is, is that where the road ends for everything and everyone?? I personally think not, because that seems like a dreadfully lonely life.

But what if the destination is life?

Blessed is he who endures until the end.

Yet, if you were teaching a class of illiterates, would you throw up the projector, or speak to them in a way they understand you??

Unlike Jesus, muhammed was an illiterate.

God killed Assyrians. That is inherently good?

Moslems slaughtered nearly a million Christian Assyrians early in the twentieth century, was that good?

Might be one thing to argue that the consequences of such an atrocious genocidal act were good; however, to state that it was inherently good (i.e., the act was good in itself, regardless of consequences) it outlandish, despicable, and revolting.

Yep!

this is where the free will argument breaks down. If we have free will, how can our fate be known? If our fate is known, then everything we do leads us to that fate, therefore there is no free will.

As a man thinks, so will he speak.

As he speaks, so will he act.

His acts become his habits.

His habits detemine his character.

His character becomes his fate.

His fate determines his destiny.

His destiny is because of what he thinks.

 

[Tenacious D]

So, you're essentially afraid of a life with no predetermined purpose or afterlife?

Personally, I don't think there is an afterlife. I don't believe in a soul. I don't believe in heaven or hell.

I don't claim to know that there is no afterlife, I've just prepared myself mentally and accepted that I make my purpose on this Earth and it is not predetermined. I'm happy knowing that my body is composed of energy that was and will forever be used by other humans, plants, and animals for long after I die.

It's hard to argue with this line of belief.
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