Making a Murderer (w/ Spoilers)

#451
#451
Sandvol said:
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Intimidation and persuasion-isn't it OK for police to use intimidation and persuasion? Haven't the courts repeatedly said that it is OK? What he might have thought is irrelevant and speculation.



Sorry, not a problem.



Hate to tell you this but an IQ of 70 (if that is really what it is nobody knows) does not give someone the license to confess to a murder and then get a free pass and say "well I didn't really know what I was saying," especially when he confessed on several occasions after being read his rights.
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It isn't ok when they use this tactic on a juvenile without a parent or attorney present.
 
#452
#452
hog88 said:
It isn't ok when they use this tactic on a juvenile without a parent or attorney present.
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I agree, but SV's response is going to be that the investigators had gotten permission from his mother and his lawyer to speak with him.
 
#453
#453
Sandvol said:
This is a belief promoted by all the innocence groups, etc. Most of the courts have ruled there just isn't any evidence to support the view that tactics police employ short of torture are going to get an innocent person to confess to a crime. Brendan's problem is the goodness in him is what got him caught. He couldn't live with himself. All those images of Teresa being tortured and begging for her life and being mutilated and burned haunted him. They caused him to lose weight, lose sleep, have fits of crying incessantly where his cousin and members of his family noticed. He wasn't a psychopath like his uncle. All his recanting and then confessing again based on who he was talking to illuminated the internal struggles he was having. Too bad when his uncle pulled him into the crime he didn't run out of the trailer and get help or stab his uncle through the heart.
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"False confessions and incriminating statements were present in approximately 31 percent of cases. Looking at only the homicide cases, false confessions are the leading contributing factor - contributing to 71 (63%) of the 113 homicide cases among the DNA exonerations. Thirty-three of the DNA exonerees pled guilty to crimes they did not commit. The Innocence Project encourages police departments to electronically record all custodial interrogations in their entirety in order to provide an accurate record of the proceedings and provide fact-finders with a solid understanding of the questioning that led to the confession or admission."

DNA Exonerations Nationwide ? The Innocence Project
 
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#454
#454
bamawriter said:
This is a fact that many have pointed to in the wake of the documentary. What no one seems keen to acknowledge is that, while Tadych and Bobby Dassey are only alibied by each other, Steven Avery has no alibi at all.
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Avery did have 2 recorded phone conversations in the middle of the murder. He apparently had a bonfire with Brendan Dassey on the night of the murder. I'm pretty sure he also talked to his brother and uncle.

Tadych and Bobby Dassey's alibis aren't nearly that strong. They also gave conflicting accounts in all their official statements.
 
#455
#455
red butler said:
Avery did have 2 recorded phone conversations in the middle of the murder. He apparently had a bonfire with Brendan Dassey on the night of the murder. I'm pretty sure he also talked to his brother and uncle.

Tadych and Bobby Dassey's alibis aren't nearly that strong. They also gave conflicting accounts in all their official statements.
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But they weren't suing the county for millions of dollars for 18 years of wrongful imprisonment.
 
#456
#456
red butler said:
Avery did have 2 recorded phone conversations in the middle of the murder. He apparently had a bonfire with Brendan Dassey on the night of the murder. I'm pretty sure he also talked to his brother and uncle.
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If the murder played out exactly as Brendan Dassey claimed it did, then you're correct: Steven Avery has multiple alibis for the multiple hours it would have taken.

But given that nobody here except for Sandvol thinks that the murder went down like that, Avery has long stretches where he has no one to back him up. I, personally, doubt the murder took very long at all, since there is no evidence of a prolonged struggle or captivity.
 
#459
#459
SamRebel35 said:
"False confessions and incriminating statements were present in approximately 31 percent of cases. Looking at only the homicide cases, false confessions are the leading contributing factor - contributing to 71 (63%) of the 113 homicide cases among the DNA exonerations. Thirty-three of the DNA exonerees pled guilty to crimes they did not commit. The Innocence Project encourages police departments to electronically record all custodial interrogations in their entirety in order to provide an accurate record of the proceedings and provide fact-finders with a solid understanding of the questioning that led to the confession or admission."

DNA Exonerations Nationwide ? The Innocence Project
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Right.
 
#461
#461
red butler said:
Avery did have 2 recorded phone conversations in the middle of the murder. He apparently had a bonfire with Brendan Dassey on the night of the murder. I'm pretty sure he also talked to his brother and uncle.

Tadych and Bobby Dassey's alibis aren't nearly that strong. They also gave conflicting accounts in all their official statements.
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Maybe it was because of all that other evidence that pointed at Avery.
 
#463
#463
I'm going to swerve the topic a little bit. Does anyone have an explanation as to why Avery's defense decided to select 12 Manitowoc county residents to sit on the jury? Why not go state-wide?

And why not declare mistrial when the jury member has to dismiss himself?
 
#465
#465
PotS said:
I'm going to swerve the topic a little bit. Does anyone have an explanation as to why Avery's defense decided to select 12 Manitowoc county residents to sit on the jury? Why not go state-wide?

And why not declare mistrial when the jury member has to dismiss himself?
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As to the former, there may be some legal issues that go along with that. It's one thing to say the cops and DA have a conflict of interest, but can you reasonably argue that every citizen of the county is biases against the defendant?

To the latter, a mistrial after 6 weeks doesn't help the defense one iota. If you think you've proven your case, then you either seat an alternate or you simply allow 11 jurors to reach a verdict.
 
#466
#466
PotS said:
I'm going to swerve the topic a little bit. Does anyone have an explanation as to why Avery's defense decided to select 12 Manitowoc county residents to sit on the jury? Why not go state-wide?
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I thought they attempted that and the judge denied their request for a jury outside of Manitowoc.
 
#467
#467
SWIL said:
This is interesting...

OnMilwaukee.com Movies & TV: Nurse was to testify she punctured Avery blood vial; experts say holes common
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That answers a big question for me. Every time they raised the issue of that hole, I kept thinking about giving blood and remembering that they never removed the caps on those vials. How else could the blood get in there? Now we know. Doesn't rule out that someone tampered with the vial, bit it makes that "eureka" scene seem staged and ridiculous.
 
#468
#468
TheDeeble said:
I thought they attempted that and the judge denied their request for a jury outside of Manitowoc.
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I honestly can't recall. For some reason I was thinking Avery's lawyers specifically selected 12 county citizens. It just seemed odd, so you may be right.
 
#469
#469
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#470
#470
SamRebel35 said:
Making a Murderer case opened by Brendan Dassey mother's claim about inmate | Daily Mail Online

Hmm, you would think this guy, who was on the Avery Property the day the Rav 4 was found, and who later that day attempted to ax murder his family, might have been a suspect. No? Well, judge Willis obviously didn't think so. Tunnel vision. This is yet another indication of what a complete farce this trial and investigation were.
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The article that you linked doesn't support the bold. There is no indication that he Martinez was ever raised as a potential suspect, by the State or the defense.
 
#471
#471
bamawriter said:
The article that you linked doesn't support the bold. There is no indication that he Martinez was ever raised as a potential suspect, by the State or the defense.
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Judge wouldn't allow any other suspects. You really think the defense didn't have this guy pegged as a possible suspect? The guy who was on Avery's salvage yard the day the car was found? The guy that was a regular customer at the salvage yard? The guy that later went on to attempt to ax murder his family? The guy that Brendan Dassey specifically mentions in one of his interrogations? You really think he wasn't on the defense's radar? I would be willing to bet that he was on a short list of alternative suspects that the defense had, but it didn't matter because the judge disallowed any other suspects to be brought up.
 
#472
#472
SamRebel35 said:
Judge wouldn't allow any other suspects. You really think the defense didn't have this guy pegged as a possible suspect? The guy who was on Avery's salvage yard the day the car was found? The guy that was a regular customer at the salvage yard? The guy that later went on to attempt to ax murder his family? The guy that Brendan Dassey specifically mentions in one of his interrogations? You really think he wasn't on the defense's radar? I would be willing to bet that he was on a short list of alternative suspects that the defense had, but it didn't matter because the judge disallowed any other suspects to be brought up.
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Can you link the bold?

Avery's defense included Martinez in a long list of possible third parties, but I've seen nothing that lays out his propensity to violence nor his actions on November 5th. In fact, a note in an appellate court decision gives me the impression that the defense looked into whether Martinez was on the property on 10/31/05 and struck out.

Judge Willis has been skewered in the wake of the documentary for prohibiting the defense from naming other possible suspects. While I'm no legal expert, upon reading the trial transcripts, I'm not sure that he didn't rule properly. The presentation of possible third parties has to meet the legitimate tendency test outlined in State v Denny. It's not enough to say "Person X could have done it." There must be some evidence that links that person to the crime, some indication of motive, and evidence of opportunity. Essentially, the defense can't roll out an unlimited list of possibilities simply because suspicion can be raised. None of the list of possibilities raised by the defense could meet the legitimate tendency test required by Denny, with the exception of Brendan Dassey, whom the defense made the conscious decision not to pursue.

I haven't made it all the way thru the trial, nor have I read all of the Appellate Courts' decisions. But so far, I'm not sold on the idea that the defense had nearly enough to meet the Denny standard on any of the list of possibilities. And the Denny standard really isn't all that strict. It simply requires more than "X person could have done it, so my client isn't guilty."

While I think the cops never gave adequate attention (or any attention at all) to other possible suspects, the defense had a year and a half to link anyone else to the crime and couldn't do it.
 
#473
#473
I agree that the judge appeared to show strong bias in this case; a judiciary cardinal sin.
 
#474
#474
SWIL said:
I agree that the judge appeared to show strong bias in this case; a judiciary cardinal sin.
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I had the same reaction upon watching the documentary. However, I'm on Day 8 of the trial transcripts, and I'm becoming more and more convinced that my initial reaction was incorrect. The series greatly distorts several decisions the Court made, and in several instances portrays them in such a false light that it amounts to outright dishonesty on the part of the producers. For just one example, see my long post about Bobby Dassey's testimony.
 
#475
#475
Yeah, my buzz has worn off from watching the series and some good points have been made on here regarding things that were not disclosed in the show.

I still believe the level of doubt, the lack of physical evidence, and the behavior of the Manitowoc police are more than enough to give most pause about Avery's or Dassey's guilt.

Lest we forget, 7 of the jurors felt this way as well initially.

I can't imagine what was done or said to change their minds... we all have the same information and everyone on here, save SandVol, seems like they would've had a very hard time convicting these men if they were the jurors.
 
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