Making a Murderer (w/ Spoilers)

I don't know what the standard protocol would be, but I agree with Bama. I would make the assumption that the family was looking for closure, and this was a step she (the mother) needed to be able to move forward with her life without her daughter.

I can see the angle where this could seem suspicious, but I don't believe there was any underlying malicious intent here.

My internal theory about Teresa's murder directs me towards Scott Taydch and Bobby Dassey, so I'm very interested to hear Bama's take Bobby's testimony.
 
Hmm I can see that.

However, there is something else that's strange. The death certificate claims an autopsy was performed. An autopsy on what? A Pile of unidentified bones in a storage bin in calumet County awaiting DNA testing? I suspect nothing was nefarious about this, but it seems like it could possibly be one more aspect of the case that was not even close to "by the book".

I'm no expert on the subject, but I assume that an autopsy is performed to the extent that it can be. I know they did enough of an autopsy to determine that she was shot in the head.
 
I'm no expert on the subject, but I assume that an autopsy is performed to the extent that it can be. I know they did enough of an autopsy to determine that she was shot in the head.

Yes, they did that after they identified them as her bones. The death certificate claims an autopsy was performed before the bones were even identified as belonging to TH.
 
My take on Bobby Dassey:

Please keep in mind that this is based on just reading the trial transcripts. I can't see any photos, videos, or any other exhibits that were entered; I can only read descriptions of them. I'm also comparing the transcripts to how the events were depicted in the show, and I'm doing that from my memory of episodes I watched only once, and that was a few weeks back. If my memory is faulty, please feel free to correct me.

Bobby Dassey has become a popular subject of alternative killer theories. One of the reasons why is that the series presents a moment in court where Dassey, under direct examination by Ken Kratz, relates a "joke" that Steven Avery told about "getting rid of" a body in the days following Halbach's disappearance. This sets off a relative firestorm in the courtroom. Strang and Buting object and inform the judge that the only mention of this "joke" in any of the police reports came from a Michael Osmunson, a friend of Bobby Dassey.

Osmunson told investigators that, on November 10th, well after Halbach had been reported missing, he and Bobby Dassey were hanging out in the Avery garage when Steven Avery walked in. By that point, the Halbach disappearance was all over the news, as well as the fact that Steven Avery might have been the last person to see her alive. Osmunson jokingly asked Avery if "he had the girl in his closet". Avery jokingly responded by asking if Osmunson and Dassey wanted to help him bury the body. Dassey never mentioned the comments to police, but Osmunson's statement made it clear that Dassey was a party to the exchange.

Now, it is critical to note that Osmunson could not have possibly been correct about the date of this conversation. By November 10th, Steven Avery was already in custody.

Back to the trial. During direct, Kratz asked Dassey about this conversation. He specifically asked Dassey about a conversation on the evening of November 3rd. That's when Dassey said "It sounded like he was joking, honestly, but he asked us if he wanted us to help him get rid of the body." No context is given for this comment. Boom, immediate objection from the defense.

The date issue is critical here. Halbach was reported missing on the morning of November 3rd. Her disappearance would have barely made the news cycle by that evening, so it is extremely unlikely that Dassey or Osmunson would have known about it to bring it up with Avery. Avery's comment in that context is incredibly damning. However, Kratz also had the date wrong. Dassey was at work on the evening of November 3rd, so the conversation could not have happened then either. After much discussion, both the prosecution and the defense agreed that the conversation happened on the 4th, when Dassey could have been present, and Osmunson could have known about Halbach's disappearance. It is really important to note that both sides agreed upon this date.

So, the defense has objected on grounds pertaining to the rules of evidence (I'm not a lawyer, so I'm simply trying to summarize what I read). If a statement by the defendant is going to be entered into the record by another witness, then the State is obligated to report that to the defense during discovery. The State never alerted the defense that Bobby Dassey was going to mention that joke. As I noted before, Dassey had never mentioned the joke to investigators. The defense asks for a mistrial because the jury is tainted by this information.

MaM edits out the majority of the debate over the defense's objection. The series gives the impression that the defense has accused Bobby Dassey of lying about Avery's comment, and that the State has perhaps suborned perjury by allowing Dassey to place the conversation on November 3rd. The truth is not nearly as dramatic. The defense does not accuse Dassey of lying. Rather, they accuse the State of not following the rules of evidence. The defense knew about the joke, as they'd seen Osmunson's statement. But they knew that the State hadn't put Osmunson on the witness list, so they assumed that it wouldn't come up. The defense certainly wasn't going to put him on the stand to detail their client joking about burying a body. But the State had an obligation to alert the defense that Avery's statement was going to come in via Bobby Dassey. The defense didn't think Dassey was lying about hearing the joke because Osmunson's statement placed Dassey in the garage when the conversation happened. But they were blindsided by the statement because of the State's failure to disclose that it was coming. It should be noted that the defense never interviewed Bobby Dassey before the trial, despite knowing that he was a witness, and despite knowing that he'd heard the joke. The defense assumed that the joke wouldn't come up since the State didn't disclose it, and they should have felt comfortable in that assumption. But still, they had the chance to talk to Dassey and they didn't.

The series makes it seem like the judge simply dismisses the defense's request for a mistrial, and simply allows Dassey's (likely perjurious) statement to remain on the record. This is a complete distortion of the truth. The judge actually acknowledges the State's failure in reporting the discovery to the defense, and sustains the defense's objection. But he doesn't grant the mistrial because, despite the State's misstep, no one is accusing Bobby Dassey of lying. Instead, he ends court early for the day and grants the defense the rest of the afternoon to interview Dassey, and rules that Dassey's cross-examination will begin the next morning. He even makes the incredibly generous decision to prohibit anyone from the State from talking to Dassey until after the defense has finished with him. I learned all of that from the transcripts. The series makes it seem like the judge overruled the defense's objection, and the trial kept right on moving.

So, cross-examination occurs when court resumes the next morning. The defense gets Dassey to clarify the date of the conversation as being after Halbach's disappearance had hit the news, and that Avery's comment was likely a joke made response to a joking question. But it doesn't end there. The defense then brings up the issue of putting Osmunson on the stand. The State doesn't even force their hand on the subject. The State stipulates to Osmunson's likely testimony, and Strang is allowed to read a statement directly to the jury that says basically "There is a guy named Mike Osmunson, and if he were to testify he'd tell you..."

tl/dr: The series made it appear that Dassey was lying about hearing the joke and the judge let it stand despite the defense's objections. The defense was blindsided and was not give the opportunity to correct the issue on the record. That did not happen, at all.
 
Yes, they did that after they identified them as her bones. The death certificate claims an autopsy was performed before the bones were even identified as belonging to TH.

I'm not sure that's the order in which things went. A preliminary forensic autopsy would almost certainly have been done before DNA typing was carried out. You may be right on the order, but I don't think you are.
 
This probably should have been the perfect, next logical choice for the current installment of Serial instead of traitor, Bergdahl
 
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I'm not sure that's the order in which things went. A preliminary forensic autopsy would almost certainly have been done before DNA typing was carried out. You may be right on the order, but I don't think you are.

I would think a cause of death would be listed if it happened in the order you described. The death certificate just says "undetermined".
 
I would think a cause of death would be listed if it happened in the order you described. The death certificate just says "undetermined".

I'm still not seeing an issue. There was a gunshot wound to the head, but given the state of the remains, there was no way to know at the time the certificate was signed whether or not the wound was the cause of death.

You are reading way more into the death certificate than is really there.

EDIT: As I'm reading into Day 5 of the transcripts, I realize that I was wrong about something. The initial forensic analysis of the bones determined that there was trauma inflicted upon the skull, but did not conclusively state that it was a gunshot. The determination of the gunshot came later.

That would explain why cause of death would be listed as "undetermined" when the death certificate was signed.
 
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This probably should have been the perfect, next logical choice for the current installment of Serial instead of traitor, Bergdahl

I would LOVE for Serial to get ahold of this one
 
This probably should have been the perfect, next logical choice for the current installment of Serial instead of traitor, Bergdahl

I listened to Serial and don't see what all the controversy is about. That case didn't seem like a hasty witch hunt with only one suspect. The evidence against Saeed seemed pretty concrete.
 
I don't think interrogations typically go like this. I don't think investigators give up information like "who shot her in the head?" What made them think she had been shot? What evidence did they have for them to think she'd been shot? He just admitted to slashing her throat, why dig deeper to pin a firearm into this? I think they were trying to build a confession of murder that implicated Steve Avery, and they found their puppet in Brendan. Shot in the head. Check, we can "locate a bullet." What type? Check, .22 rifle above Avery's bed.

And here's the fundamental difference between you and I, SV. I DO have doubt that Brendan participated. I have seen no physical evidence to corroborate anything Brendan said, and based on my interpretation and context of his transcripts, audio, and video, I don't think Brendan developed and told his confession without being coerced.

Please define coercion.
 
I know what it is. I wanted to make sure he understands what it is.

Have my responses to you been so elementary that you should resort to questioning my vocabulary and knowledge of big words? Come on, SV, you're better than that.

I think the investigators used intimidation and persuasion to get Brendan to say the things he did. I don't think Brendan thought he was confessing, and surely didn't understand the impacts of what he said to the investigators.

"We know what you did. We know Steve killed that girl, and we know you helped. We know all these details. You're in big trouble, Brendan."

Intimidation.

"We know you did all this stuff, but we're on your side. We know Steve made you do all this stuff, so just tell us exactly what happened, and be honest, we need you to be completely honest if we're going to be able to help you. If you lie just a little bit we'll know and it'll be worse for you. If you cooperate and tell us everything, we think you'll be able to get out of this some."

Persuasion.

That's coercion, especially when the kid has an IQ of 70, little to no comprehension skills, and the naivety of a 12-year old.
 
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Have my responses to you been so elementary that you should resort to questioning my vocabulary and knowledge of big words? Come on, SV, you're better than that.

I think the investigators used intimidation and persuasion to get Brendan to say the things he did. I don't think Brendan thought he was confessing, and surely didn't understand the impacts of what he said to the investigators.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Intimidation and persuasion-isn't it OK for police to use intimidation and persuasion? Haven't the courts repeatedly said that it is OK? What he might have thought is irrelevant and speculation.

"We know what you did. We know Steve killed that girl, and we know you helped. We know all these details. You're in big trouble, Brendan."

Intimidation.

Sorry, not a problem.

"We know you did all this stuff, but we're on your side. We know Steve made you do all this stuff, so just tell us exactly what happened, and be honest, we need you to be completely honest if we're going to be able to help you. If you lie just a little bit we'll know and it'll be worse for you. If you cooperate and tell us everything, we think you'll be able to get out of this some."

Persuasion.

That's coercion, especially when the kid has an IQ of 70, little to no comprehension skills, and the naivety of a 12-year old.

Hate to tell you this but an IQ of 70 (if that is really what it is nobody knows) does not give someone the license to confess to a murder and then get a free pass and say "well I didn't really know what I was saying," especially when he confessed on several occasions after being read his rights.
 
Mean ole police. How dare they act so intimidating and tricky with cutthroats and murderers. Bad, bad, naughty police.
 
SV, you're more familiar with the details of Brendan's transcripts, I'll grant you that.

Is there any specific detail about Teresa's murder that Brendan divulged without being leaned on and urged by the investigators? And I suppose more importantly, is there any physical evidence (and don't say the bullet*) that lines up with Brendan's story?

You don't seem to believe that investigators can craft a narrative and get their suspect to agree to it. If you haven't already, take a look at this: New York Magazine

*I say "don't say the bullet" because we've hashed that out. You believe Brendan led them to the bullet, which they found in another search of the garage. I believe they didn't find a bullet in multiple searches of the garage, they got Brendan to say they shot her and then went back and conveniently located a bullet casing. We disagree, and that's really all there is to it.
 
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Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Intimidation and persuasion-isn't it OK for police to use intimidation and persuasion? Haven't the courts repeatedly said that it is OK? What he might have thought is irrelevant and speculation.

You're correct on this. While I think Fassbender and Wiegert used coercive techniques when questioning Dassey, I'm not convinced that they were to so coercive as to make the statements inadmissable. I believe that there are many indications that Dassey's confessions were false, that's for a jury to decide. False confessions happen, and they often lead to very unfortunate results (see the West Memphis Three).

The bigger issue for me is the ineffective assistance of Dassey's original defense counsel. While some of the producers' portrayal of Len Kachinsky may be unfair, there is no question that he did not act in the best interest of his client by having his personal investigator badger him for hours, and then put him in a room, alone, with the detectives. For that reason alone, Dassey should be given a new trial, and the long, detailed statement should be thrown out.

If the State can put Dassey back behind bars with just his pre-arrest statements, then more power to them.
 
Sorry, I should've responded in kind. I enjoyed your summary, as it definitely closed a loop on very "pivotal" scene in the documentary. Doesn't really seem like it was a big deal at all.

My biggest thing with Taydch and Bobby Dassey is that their alibis only corroborate each other, Bobby had fresh scratches days after Teresa's disappearance, and their insistence of Avery's guilt during the trial when the rest of the family was shouting innocence.

I just feel like the Manitowoc County police got a probable suspect in Avery and immediately took measures to ensure they got a conviction on him. Maybe they did their due diligence (I haven't read the trial memoirs), but it just felt like keyed on Steve and that was the end of it.
 
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My biggest thing with Taydch and Bobby Dassey is that their alibis only corroborate each other,

This is a fact that many have pointed to in the wake of the documentary. What no one seems keen to acknowledge is that, while Tadych and Bobby Dassey are only alibied by each other, Steven Avery has no alibi at all.

and their insistence of Avery's guilt during the trial when the rest of the family was shouting innocence.

I really haven't seen a lot of direct quotes from Bobby Dassey professing belief in Avery's guilt. Tadych, yes. But not so much from Dassey.

I just feel like the Manitowoc County police got a probable suspect in Avery and immediately took measures to ensure they got a conviction on him. Maybe they did their due diligence (I haven't read the trial memoirs), but it just felt like keyed on Steve and that was the end of it.

This is undoubtedly true.
 
You're correct on this. While I think Fassbender and Wiegert used coercive techniques when questioning Dassey, I'm not convinced that they were to so coercive as to make the statements inadmissable. I believe that there are many indications that Dassey's confessions were false, that's for a jury to decide. False confessions happen, and they often lead to very unfortunate results (see the West Memphis Three).

The bigger issue for me is the ineffective assistance of Dassey's original defense counsel. While some of the producers' portrayal of Len Kachinsky may be unfair, there is no question that he did not act in the best interest of his client by having his personal investigator badger him for hours, and then put him in a room, alone, with the detectives. For that reason alone, Dassey should be given a new trial, and the long, detailed statement should be thrown out.

If the State can put Dassey back behind bars with just his pre-arrest statements, then more power to them.


This is a belief promoted by all the innocence groups, etc. Most of the courts have ruled there just isn't any evidence to support the view that tactics police employ short of torture are going to get an innocent person to confess to a crime. Brendan's problem is the goodness in him is what got him caught. He couldn't live with himself. All those images of Teresa being tortured and begging for her life and being mutilated and burned haunted him. They caused him to lose weight, lose sleep, have fits of crying incessantly where his cousin and members of his family noticed. He wasn't a psychopath like his uncle. All his recanting and then confessing again based on who he was talking to illuminated the internal struggles he was having. Too bad when his uncle pulled him into the crime he didn't run out of the trailer and get help or stab his uncle through the heart.
 
This is a belief promoted by all the innocence groups, etc. Most of the courts have ruled there just isn't any evidence to support the view that tactics police employ short of torture are going to get an innocent person to confess to a crime.

You are twisting the facts here. Whether or not a court rules that a statement is inadmissible based upon how it was obtained does not mean that there is an assumption that the statement is inherently true. Any number of factors could result in an innocent person confessing to a crime, among them being fear, lack of understanding, lack of intelligence, mental disease, and believing that confessing will allow for a more favorable result.

But, as I said before, as long as the confession was obtained properly, it should be up to a jury to decide if it was true. However, it should not be assumed to be true; confessions need corroboration.

So again, I don't personally have an issue with the pre-arrest confessions. But the post-arrest confession should be tossed.
 

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