Malinowski murder by ATF

[marcusluvsvols]

I agree a lot with what Kpt and others have shared.

This guy brought heat upon himself. He was breaking the law in a significant way. But given his access to weapons a no knock at night seems like incredibly bad judgement.
Can we not have a couple of guys stake him out and pull him over headed to the grocery store or something?

Just like Ruby Ridge and David Koresh. Both could have been completely avoided by simply having a couple agents stake out the known residences and arresting the men when they went to town. Hell...Koresh played in a band at the local watering hole every weekend for Petes sake.

 

[EasternVol]

I agree a lot with what Kpt and others have shared.

This guy brought heat upon himself. He was breaking the law in a significant way. But given his access to weapons a no knock at night seems like incredibly bad judgement.
Can we not have a couple of guys stake him out and pull him over headed to the grocery store or something?

Wasn't it a search warrant for the property and not an arrest warrant?
It seems like a daylight visit to the house would have done the trick. He wasn't exactly Pablo Escobar.

 

[McDad]

Wasn't it a search warrant for the property and not an arrest warrant?
It seems like a daylight visit to the house would have done the trick. He wasn't exactly Pablo Escobar.

I'm not sure what type of warrant they served.
But I agree there was a better way to serve it.

 

[hog88]

Just like Ruby Ridge and many others I am sure. These 3 letter agencies think they are above the law, and even think theyre above Congressional oversight. Its ridiculous and 75% of these agencies need to be disbanded.

They are above congressional oversight. When has a 3 letter agency ever had their funding cut because their director refuses to answer questions?

 

[marcusluvsvols]

They are above congressional oversight. When has a 3 letter agency ever had their funding cut because their director refuses to answer questions?

When I see them stand in front of Congress and smirk while refusing to answer questions or turn over subpoenaed documents...it makes me sick man. We need to clean house at the 3 letter agencies and get rid of 75% of them altogether

 

[hog88]

When I see them stand in front of Congress and smirk while refusing to answer questions or turn over subpoenaed documents...it makes me sick man. We need to clean house at the 3 letter agencies and get rid of 75% of them altogether

Yeah and congress isn’t going to exert their power over them because the members know the agencies have the dirt on them. People desperately need to understand that it’s the 3 letter agencies running the country and not our elected representatives and that is why the SCOTUS ruling on reversing the Chevron rule is soooo important.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

No, you didn’t misread it but you did draw the wrong conclusion.

Then what are you saying?

 

[ButchPlz]

Yeah and congress isn’t going to exert their power over them because the members know the agencies have the dirt on them. People desperately need to understand that it’s the 3 letter agencies running the country and not our elected representatives and that is why the SCOTUS ruling on reversing the Chevron rule is soooo important.

I'd like to point out that it's not just the three letter agencies everyone is thinking of, but almost every agency in the federal government has some kind of leverage over our punk ass congressmen, and thus none will ever be held responsible for anything. When Trump talked of the "deep state" everyone had some kind of idea that he was referring to a shadowy illuminati behind the scenes. To me, it's the entrenched idiots that are unemployable everywhere else that make up the big, immovable rock that is the federal bureaucracy. Until that is broken, nothing will change.

 

[GroverCleveland]

I'm not sure what type of warrant they served.
But I agree there was a better way to serve it.

Search warrant I believe.

 

[GroverCleveland]

When I see them stand in front of Congress and smirk while refusing to answer questions or turn over subpoenaed documents...it makes me sick man. We need to clean house at the 3 letter agencies and get rid of 75% of them altogether

And the ones left should be moved out of DC. They have lost touch with ordinary citizens. Move them out where America lives.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I agree a lot with what Kpt and others have shared.

This guy brought heat upon himself. He was breaking the law in a significant way. But given his access to weapons a no knock at night seems like incredibly bad judgement.
Can we not have a couple of guys stake him out and pull him over headed to the grocery store or something?

How did he bring heat upon himself?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I understand the principle of FAFO. Dude wouldn't be in this situation if he wasn't doing some shady **** so he'd have to live with the consequences... if he was still alive.

I don't think most people here are arguing against that. We are arguing against tactics used by law enforcement that contributed greatly to why he is dead today and why many others are killed/injured in these no knock raids (sometimes they don't even get the right house, whoops!)

If someone can provide a coherent explanation on why they needed to raid his house in the middle of the night for this particular search warrant execution I would listen with an open mind. To me it seems like a good way to encourage armed conflict.

What did he do that was shady?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'd like to point out that it's not just the three letter agencies everyone is thinking of, but almost every agency in the federal government has some kind of leverage over our punk ass congressmen, and thus none will ever be held responsible for anything. When Trump talked of the "deep state" everyone had some kind of idea that he was referring to a shadowy illuminati behind the scenes. To me, it's the entrenched idiots that are unemployable everywhere else that make up the big, immovable rock that is the federal bureaucracy. Until that is broken, nothing will change.

You are justifiably angry at the Feds, but keep in mind that Red State local LEOs were also involved.

I swear... you MFers will defend (or ignore) the police at every chance you get. The police are not your friend.

 

[McDad]

How did he bring heat upon himself?

From @LouderVol

his likely illegal actions started it. ...
the judge signed the warrant because the ATF had proof of him making multiple illegal gun sales.
The ATF had proof of him making multiple illegal gun sales after an investigation into how his recovered guns were ending up being used in multiple violent crimes.
his guns were being used in multiple violent crimes because he was directly selling to known criminals.
it all started with him.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

The no knock raid especially in this instance is extremely puzzling. The guy had no priors and based on all reports was a law-abiding citizen leading up to the search. Could have been handled much better obviously.

His attorney admitted he was crossing the line of illegality. So, he's not a law abiding citizen.

That being said, no knock warrants should not be issued unless there exigent circumstances. Why not just execute the search warrant when this guy was at work instead of when he's likely asleep?

 

[ClearwaterVol]

You don't know if this was a legal action or not at this point. What justification did they use to obtain a no knock warrant, probably false or misleading information knowing the ATF. It is absolute policy for the local LEO to have their body cams on at all times but for some odd reason none accompanying the ATF on this raid had them on. So did the ATF violate local law/policy by ordering them to be off? There are so many pieces to this puzzle so if one is out of place the entire raid is potentially illegal.

Not to mention, none of it makes sense and that is why this entire thing was an ATF kill mission.

You are jumping to lots of conclusions.

 

[LouderVol]

SIAP but is this what you're inquiring about?

Rosas found not guilty in CCPD SWAT shooting

A jury has found 48-year-old Ray Rosas not guilty on three counts of aggravated assault against a public servant.

www.kiiitv.com

That is what I was inquiring about. I had never heard of a case, or this one. good to know its out there as precedent.

 

[ButchPlz]

You are justifiably angry at the Feds, but keep in mind that Red State local LEOs were also involved.

I swear... you MFers will defend (or ignore) the police at every chance you get. The police are not your friend.

I never said they were, nor did I defend the police. I said their hiring practices and their culture allow- if not outright encourage- such things to happen.

 

[82_VOL_83]

That doesn't address whether a person would be within their rights or not to fire depending on whether the correct address was raided.
I'm quite sure that if someone cuts power to your house, blocks your view of who may be outside, and breaks in armed and unannounced, the thought of a rational person is that someone is intent on doing them harm. And thus they are within their rights to open fire. He wasn't wrong.

I would have fired and been dead.

 

[82_VOL_83]

does one have the right to use violence to stop federal agents from pursuing a legal action with the backing of a judge against you? I think any court case is going to say you can't (legally).

when they raid the wrong address or grab the wrong person they aren't pursuing a legal action backed by a judge. thus you are going to be justified in defending yourself.

in both cases it doesn't matter what the agents, or the self defense person, THINKs; what matters is the truth of the matter.

I don't think no-knocks SHOULD be legal, but they are. just like the anti-2A doesn't want self defense to be legal, but it is.

Your 3rd paragraph is exactly wrong. Take a CCDW class. No judge would convict him had he killed an agent and lived.

 

[LouderVol]

Your 3rd paragraph is exactly wrong. Take a CCDW class. No judge would convict him had he killed an agent and lived.

I have. one ran by a lawyer. he said it wasn't enough to think. you had to know what you are shooting at.

his point was if you don't know what/who you are shooting at, how are you going to be able to be cross examined and say you KNEW your life was in danger if you didn't know who it was.

 

[McDad]

I have. one ran by a lawyer. he said it wasn't enough to think. you had to know what you are shooting at.

his point was if you don't know what/who you are shooting at, how are you going to be able to be cross examined and say you KNEW your life was in danger if you didn't know who it was.

That's sounds like a lawyer's advice.

If someone is coming into my house and I see a gun pointed at me, I don't know WHO it is but I know WHAT is at stake.

Caveat 1...I have no warrants against me, have never been in legal trouble. There is no reason for me to be startled awake at night by armed people entering my home and think, "oh those are LEOs serving a no knock warrant".

Caveat 2...it's all hypothetical anyway because hog was storing my guns and I lost them in the same flood which took his.

 

[LouderVol]

That's sounds like a lawyer's advice.

If someone is coming into my house and I see a gun pointed at me, I don't know WHO it is but I know WHAT is at stake.

Caveat 1...I have no warrants against me, have never been in legal trouble. There is no reason for me to be startled awake at night by armed people entering my home and think, "oh those are LEOs serving a no knock warrant".

Caveat 2...it's all hypothetical anyway because hog was storing my guns and I lost them in the same flood which took his.

he made the point if you can clearly see a gun, a shoot can be justified. but again you have to positively ID a gun. what happens when that armed intruder is actually just carrying something that isn't a weapon? its dark, you are confused, scared, jumped up on adrenaline, easy to misidentify something. there is a reason eye witness testimony isn't all that reliable.

if you are able to clearly identify a weapon why wouldn't you also be able to clearly identify any number of identifiers on the individual carrying the weapon you have clearly identified?

 

[hog88]

he made the point if you can clearly see a gun, a shoot can be justified. but again you have to positively ID a gun. what happens when that armed intruder is actually just carrying something that isn't a weapon? its dark, you are confused, scared, jumped up on adrenaline, easy to misidentify something. there is a reason eye witness testimony isn't all that reliable.

if you are able to clearly identify a weapon why wouldn't you also be able to clearly identify any number of identifiers on the individual carrying the weapon you have clearly identified?

In TN there is none of that BS. Armed or not, someone breaks into your house you have every right to put them down.

Your last sentence is hogwash, it's dark(ATF cut the power), the ATF was wearing black clothing with their faces covered. Are people expected to verify the identity of the armed intruder prior to defending themselves, should he have asked for identification?

 

[Jxn Vol]

They executed this guy. His crime, he owned a lot of guns.

Maybe a gun registry is not a great idea. And maybe no knock warrants are a bad idea also.

Did Epstein and Bill fly out of Little Rock?