Mexico Border NOT Open to Terrorists?

#26
#26
therealUT said:
As to the odds of better success, 50-75 men against 4, armed with box cutters...sounds like pretty good odds to me.
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When you have no clue what weapons they have and some are locked in the cabin, there is quite a bit assumption on your part that everything is exactly as you say it is and not more. Did those people know the hijackers were only 4 people? Did they know they only had boxcutters? Seeing dead flight attentants has a psychological effect on the common person as well. Not everyone has a killer instinct to lunge after the unknown and risk their life for something they don't even know is worth it.
 
#27
#27
CSpindizzy said:
Let's wander back to your original comment and see how pacifism has infected people's minds to not act against hijackers. You basically said that this idea more or less caused people to be cowards.

So to elaborate on what you are defining above, the military laying low would be pacifist because they are not resisting at that moment. If units withheld from battle at particular moments they would be pacifists.
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Yeah, because individual units are always trying to pass the buck on to other units...
 
#28
#28
So if orders were to wait for nightfall or better weather they'd still be pacifists.....because at that time they are not resisting.
 
#30
#30
If they are waiting then they are not attacking...by your definition they would be pacifists.
 
#31
#31
CSpindizzy said:
If they are waiting then they are not attacking...by your definition they would be pacifists.
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Negative again CSpin...keep on trying though.

In your hypothetical scenario, there is no opposition to war or violence and there is no policy of non-resistance. I guarantee you that if while they were waiting to assault and their defensive position was engaged, that they would resist. If they did not resist, then yes, they would be pacifists.
 
#33
#33
In my scenario it is a war. Clearly you cannot understand a simple scenario. Next time I'll drop it down a level for you.
 
#37
#37
CSpindizzy said:
Who said anything about surrender? Where do you get this?
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If a unit is retreating while at the same time not providing any resistance, whatsoever, then that unit has in fact surrenderred whatever terrain they had, and most likely, the flag they fight under has surrendered too.

In Bastogne, I would say that the units that the 101st replaced, were full of cowards and pacifists.
 
#39
#39
CSpindizzy said:
So withdrawal is now labeled as cowardice....hmmm.
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Withdrawal without resistance is surrender.

Cowardice:
Down the middle of the road came the defeated American troops, fleeing the front in disarray, moblike. Many had thrown away their rifles, their coats, all encumbrances. Some were in a panic, staggering, exhausted, shouting, "Run! Run! They'll murder you! They'll kill you! They've got everything, tanks, machine-guns, air power, everything.

"They were just blabbering," Winters recalled. "It was pathetic. We felt ashamed."
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Courage:
As Easy and the other companies of the 2d Battalion marched into Bastogne and out again, uppermost in every man's mind was ammunition. "Where's the ammo? We can't fight without ammo." The retreating horde supplied some. "Got any ammo?" the paratroopers would ask those who were not victims of total panic. "Sure, buddy, glad to let you have it." (Gordon notes sardonically that by giving away their ammo, the retreating men relived themselves of any further obligation to stand and fight.) Still, Easy marched toward the sound of battle without sufficient ammunition.
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Both these passages come from Band of Brothers by Stephen Ambrose and can be found on pages 176 and 177. The same story is also recounted in Beyond Band of Brothers by Dick Winters, Biggest Brother by Larry Alexander, and Parachute Infantrymen by David Kenyon Webster.
 
#40
#40
Again, you've taken what I've said out of context. You have a tendency to twist words into something completely different than what is being discussed. Withdrawal happens frequently in war. Withdrawal is quite different than your chaotic desertion you describe. I guess the military needs more people like you making these decisions. I'll make sure I put in a few good words for you on any promotions you might be up for.
 
#41
#41
CSpindizzy said:
Again, you've taken what I've said out of context. You have a tendency to twist words into something completely different than what is being discussed. Withdrawal happens frequently in war. Withdrawal is quite different than your chaotic desertion you describe. I guess the military needs more people like you making these decisions. I'll make sure I put in a few good words for you on any promotions you might be up for.
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Read a 7-8 or the Ranger Handbook, or better yet, conduct a combat patrol sometime, and then tell me exactly where in U.S. Army Doctrine our forces withdrawal without providing some form of resistance to the attacking enemy.

I am signing off for the day...you should check on Battle Drill 3 tonight.
 
#42
#42
Check your military history some time. Then come back and quote doctrine. Books and reality don't always match. I guess those cowards you refer to at Bastogne followed their handbooks as well.
 
#43
#43
CSpindizzy said:
Check your military history some time. Then come back and quote doctrine. Books and reality don't always match. I guess those cowards you refer to at Bastogne followed their handbooks as well.
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Yes, the doctrine that states throw down your rifles and flee...
Why don't you, in your infinite military wisdom, find a historically documented occasion in which a force retreated, without supplying resistance, in which it would not be seen as cowardice...

Good night, and good luck.
 
#44
#44
Again you know how to take something so far out of context...who said anything about surrender or fleeing? None of the examples I gave indicated this. Talk about left field. You need to work at the Pentagon for the Press office. You can distort and mangle comments with the best.

Debate is better when you stick with the arguments posted instead of going off on tangents and introducing thoughts that do not flow with the examples given.
 
#45
#45
CSpindizzy said:
Again you know how to take something so far out of context...who said anything about surrender or fleeing? None of the examples I gave indicated this. Talk about left field. You need to work at the Pentagon for the Press office. You can distort and mangle comments with the best.

Debate is better when you stick with the arguments posted instead of going off on tangents and introducing thoughts that do not flow with the examples given.
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Give me an example of a time when US troops, or allied troops (if you are dying to throw Dunkirk in there), have retreated from the field of battle, while being attacked (a necessary ingredient if one is going to resist), and have not in their retreat resisted the enemy in any manner. That should be easy for you, since you have advised me to "check [my] military history."

Of course, this could come back and bite you in the *ss again, since your version of the American Civil War is completely skewed. I would hate to hear your version of any other military conflict.
 
#46
#46
since your version of the American Civil War is completely skewed.
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Civil War! Lets talk, I will settle any conflict!

Wow, no resistance what so ever?

I can name a few routes we have been in............I'll exclude the American Revolution and the Civil War for now....

I'll assume you will know what I am talking about, if not I will clarify.

Are we going with just infantry?

1.) Battle for the Phillipines
2.) Wake Island
3.) Battle of the Kasserine Pass
4.) North Koreans crossing the 38th Parrallel
 
#47
#47
OrangeEmpire said:
Civil War! Lets talk, I will settle any conflict!

Wow, no resistance what so ever?

I can name a few routes we have been in............I'll exclude the American Revolution and the Civil War for now....

I'll assume you will know what I am talking about, if not I will clarify.

Are we going with just infantry?

1.) Battle for the Phillipines
2.) Wake Island
3.) Battle of the Kasserine Pass
4.) North Koreans crossing the 38th Parrallel
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They were routes, no doubt, however, in each circumstance we had units that stayed and fought to the death. Their fighting allowed their fellow troops to live to fight another day.

MacArthur, in the Battle for the Philippines, was ordered to remove himself from the battle, almost by force since he did not want to leave his troops. In American Ceasar, MacArthur himself states that his giving in to higher command and removing himself from battle was a moment in his life in which he caved to cowardice inside.

The British and the French were routed at Dunkirk, yet, the Royal Marines fought to the end in order to give British troops the chance to regroup in England.

These are examples of withdrawals and routes which can in no way be classified as pacifist.
 
#48
#48
They were routes, no doubt, however, in each circumstance we had units that stayed and fought to the death. Their fighting allowed their fellow troops to live to fight another day.

McArthur, in the Battle for the Phillipines, was ordered to remove himself from the battle, almost by force since he did not want to leave his troops. In American Ceasar, McArthur himself states that his giving in to higher command and removing himself from battle was a moment in his life in which he caved to cowardice inside.

The British and the French were routed at Dunkirk, yet, the Royal Marines fought to the end in order to give British troops the chance to regroup in England.

These are examples of withdrawals and routes which can in no way be classified as pacifist.
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Agreed, I cannot wait for Cspin for provide some examples........I can see if he goes American Revolution or maybe even perhaps Civil War, but I do not see it happening..........

*Tidbit on McArthur........He is the only one that voted against the court with regards to Billy Mitchell's insubordination court martial.
 
#49
#49
therealUT said:
Of course, this could come back and bite you in the *ss again, since your version of the American Civil War is completely skewed. I would hate to hear your version of any other military conflict.
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Oh great one please enlighten me with your infinite wisdom as to how my version of the Civil War is skewed. I'd love to have the expert of all tell me where I am wrong.
 
#50
#50
Actually several engagements by the Israelis in their history were tactical withdrawals with no resistance.

The Mongols were famed for feigned retreat. They gave the illusion of chaotic retreat to lead the enemy to believe they had won. The next day the Mongols would find a complacent enemy easily picked off.

In Sudan in 2001, moderate and secular forces retreated in the face of overwhelming odds to regroup only to see victory one week later.

The Sri Lankan government did so in 2001 with a forward military fortress in order not to lose a major force being encircled by Tamil fighters. Saving this battalion caused their forces to overwhelm the thinned out Tamil units who took the fortress.

I can throw in many more. Clearly if you think this has not happened as strategy, you have no knowledge of combat tactics. This has happened all throughout history and contrinues to occur in various regions around the world. To retreat from single skirmish or engagement and allow better conditions at another time is in no way cowardice and surrender.
 
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