Mexico Border NOT Open to Terrorists?

#51
#51
Oh great one please enlighten me with your infinite wisdom as to how my version of the Civil War is skewed. I'd love to have the expert of all tell me where I am wrong.

I'll set you straight.........

Actually several engagements by the Israelis in their history were tactical withdrawals with no resistance.

The Mongols were famed for feigned retreat. They gave the illusion of chaotic retreat to lead the enemy to believe they had won. The next day the Mongols would find a complacent enemy easily picked off.

In Sudan in 2001, moderate and secular forces retreated in the face of overwhelming odds to regroup only to see victory one week later.

The Sri Lankan government did so in 2001 with a forward military fortress in order not to lose a major force being encircled by Tamil fighters. Saving this battalion caused their forces to overwhelm the thinned out Tamil units who took the fortress.

I can throw in many more. Clearly if you think this has not happened as strategy, you have no knowledge of combat tactics. This has happened all throughout history and contrinues to occur in various regions around the world. To retreat from single skirmish or engagement and allow better conditions at another time is in no way cowardice and surrender.

Oh, I misunderstood the line of questioning, I thought it was U.S. only......

Goodness I can provide examples of men marching into line and then dropping all and running..................

We need to set some sort of guidelines with this argument........Troop Levels, etc........

To retreat from single skirmish or engagement and allow better conditions at another time is in no way cowardice and surrender.

Worked for the Russians....................
 
#52
#52
The thing I find quite amusing is that you are equating military tactics with the way all Americans should feel. Back to your original point, Americans are not all trained in military tactics so this demand of thinking all would go guns blazing after someone who hijacked the plane at the time is rediculous. Human mindset is to base actions on experiences. Up to that point, hijackings were just for ransom, freeing prisoners, etc. No one knew that those planes would be used as weapons. Now that experience shows this can happen, you see people adapting and more charging those suspicious people on planes. This same mentality is used by the military as well. The whole philosophy of adaptation works in civilian as well as military realms.
 
#53
#53
Actually several engagements by the Israelis in their history were tactical withdrawals with no resistance.

The Mongols were famed for feigned retreat. They gave the illusion of chaotic retreat to lead the enemy to believe they had won. The next day the Mongols would find a complacent enemy easily picked off.

In Sudan in 2001, moderate and secular forces retreated in the face of overwhelming odds to regroup only to see victory one week later.

The Sri Lankan government did so in 2001 with a forward military fortress in order not to lose a major force being encircled by Tamil fighters. Saving this battalion caused their forces to overwhelm the thinned out Tamil units who took the fortress.

I can throw in many more. Clearly if you think this has not happened as strategy, you have no knowledge of combat tactics. This has happened all throughout history and contrinues to occur in various regions around the world. To retreat from single skirmish or engagement and allow better conditions at another time is in no way cowardice and surrender.
I guess you do not understand the concept of resistance. To be in a position to resist or not resist, you have to have an enemy that is attacking.

I believe that is the fourth or fifth time I have had to repeat that.
 
#54
#54
I'll set you straight.........



Oh, I misunderstood the line of questioning, I thought it was U.S. only......

You didn't misunderstand, I asked for specific instances of US troops, or allied troops. CSpin went with the Tamil Tigers and the Sudanese...
 
#55
#55
The thing I find quite amusing is that you are equating military tactics with the way all Americans should feel. Back to your original point, Americans are not all trained in military tactics so this demand of thinking all would go guns blazing after someone who hijacked the plane at the time is rediculous. Human mindset is to base actions on experiences. Up to that point, hijackings were just for ransom, freeing prisoners, etc. No one knew that those planes would be used as weapons. Now that experience shows this can happen, you see people adapting and more charging those suspicious people on planes. This same mentality is used by the military as well. The whole philosophy of adaptation works in civilian as well as military realms.
The mindset of, "I will placate the attacker and hopefully they will get theirs later," is a very recent concept in the history of man. Not even 150 years ago, men used to duel over honor. Men would certainly face death before having their houses robbed. Train robbers extensively armed themselves, because they needed the overwhelming firepower in order to quell resistance (which usually still occurred.) I am still waiting for the Western in which a passenger train in robbed by a group of men armed with only boy scout knives.
 
#56
#56
I guess you do not understand the concept of resistance. To be in a position to resist or not resist, you have to have an enemy that is attacking.

I believe that is the fourth or fifth time I have had to repeat that.

Repeat it again. These enemies were attacking. Repeat it one more time. Keep repeating it. I will repeat as well. I would encourage you to again do some research on your own. There are many examples out there. Again to think that this has never happened through a coordinated effort means no knowledge of history.
 
#57
#57
You didn't misunderstand, I asked for specific instances of US troops, or allied troops. CSpin went with the Tamil Tigers and the Sudanese...

Did you? Clearly you cannot remember your own posts. Let me help you. In your good night and good luck comment you said a historically documented example.....I guess this slipped your mind. But don't worry. I'm here to help you remember your own words.
 
#58
#58
The mindset of, "I will placate the attacker and hopefully they will get theirs later," is a very recent concept in the history of man. Not even 150 years ago, men used to duel over honor.

I guess the Mongols qualify as a recent concept.....astute observation to history.
 
#59
#59
I guess the Mongols qualify as a recent concept.....astute observation to history.
As to observations of history, I am still searching for anything concerning your 2001 Sudan example (thanks for a name of the battle, place, forces, etc.) and the 2001 Sri Lanka example. The only thing I can find in that time period concerning military gains and losses by the Tamil Tigers is that they took the Elephant Pass in April 2000 and have held it ever since.
 
#60
#60
I'll just pull your move and tell you to keep looking. Glad to see you backed down from US or Allied examples and glad to see you say nothing on the Mongols.
 
#61
#61
I'll just pull your move and tell you to keep looking. Glad to see you backed down from US or Allied examples and glad to see you say nothing on the Mongols.
I have backed down from a US or allied example? Was Israel withdrawals all the time your example?
 
#63
#63
Okay, I am struggling with the Mongol example.

What the Mongol's employed was a feint retreat.

Which would ultimately lead into guerilla warfare.

We really need to define what type of withdrawl we are talking about....route, all out retreat......feint.......what are we talking about?
 
#64
#64
I have backed down from a US or allied example? Was Israel withdrawals all the time your example?

I have given examples. You tell me historical examples and then change it up to say it was only US or allied examples. It's quite impossible to debate with someone who changes the discussion every time they've been held in check.
 
#65
#65
Nope, I am going to deny such events happened, especially as you seem to imply they did (fleeing while giving no resistance.)

Your denial is fine. But history is not judged by your denials. The fact is they occurred and continue to occur.
 
#66
#66
With your Sudan example, are you talking about the Darfur Conflict? *If so, we may have a timeline question.

Sri Lanka you are talking about the fight against counter insurgency against LTTE ,Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, and JVP, Janatha Vimukthi Peramuna?
 
#67
#67
I have given examples. You tell me historical examples and then change it up to say it was only US or allied examples. It's quite impossible to debate with someone who changes the discussion every time they've been held in check.
Fine, then your examples of the Sri Lankan military and the Sudanese military are definitely wonderful examples of prestigious, and ingenius, military tacticians. Which, of course, is why Sri Lanka and the Sudan are such formidable military powers.

Also, concerning the Mongols, this is much different that always using retreat and also of fighting back the next day:
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]As soon as battle started, the Mongol soldiers would feign retreat, deliberately throwing away gold and silver and other impedimenta. Such tactics were used sparingly - for example, if they could not break into heavily fortified cities or through a strong pass. In 1211,when the Mongols first attacked the Jin territory in northern China, Chinggis Qahan sent Jebe and Guyigu Nek ahead to attack the famous Chabchiyal Pass. The Mongols could not break through this pass because it backed onto mountain cliffs and was strongly fortified. Instead they decided to lure the enemy out by slowly retreating. The Jin army thought that the Mongols had given up, so they chased after them and were surprised, after a certain distance, to see the retreating soldiers suddenly turn to counter-attack. At that moment, the main Mongol army appeared from all sides in a pre-arranged ambush and slaughtered the enemy until their bodies piled up as far as Chibchayal, `like rotten logs'. Jebe stormed the gate of Chibchayal and took the pass.
[/FONT]

Drawing an enemy into an ambush is a little different than retreating. I did not know that the passengers on board the flights were simply drawing their captors into an ambush (which, of course the passengers had completely planned out ahead of time.)
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times] [/FONT]
 
#68
#68
I never saw you stating quality of units and nations as an example. You asked for historical examples. I never knew military powerhouses was a condition. You said it never happened and history showed it did happen.

The Mongol example is not limited to just this. Do some more digging. You never said always using retreat. You said retreating with no resistance and it being cowardly and surrendering.

I love how you redefine as you go. Every time you are proven wrong, you always attempt to redefine to suit your needs. Again, you'd make a perfect person in the Pentagon press office. They do a wonderful job (insert sarcasm here) in redefining as they go to fit their needs.
 
#69
#69
:whistling: I am the third wheel, but it is still fun!:whistling:

What about pragmatic pacifism or principled or radical pacifism.
 
#70
#70
You said retreating with no resistance and it being cowardly and surrendering.

Then the argument would switch over to outcome.........which one would argue a feint or feint retreat.............Not so cowardly considering you are going to slaughter any one who is coming after you.
 
#71
#71
I never saw you stating quality of units and nations as an example. You asked for historical examples. I never knew military powerhouses was a condition. You said it never happened and history showed it did happen.

The Mongol example is not limited to just this. Do some more digging. You never said always using retreat. You said retreating with no resistance and it being cowardly and surrendering.

I love how you redefine as you go. Every time you are proven wrong, you always attempt to redefine to suit your needs. Again, you'd make a perfect person in the Pentagon press office. They do a wonderful job (insert sarcasm here) in redefining as they go to fit their needs.
I love how you have absolutely no credibility in discussing military operations, tactics, or history. You flat stop arguing the comparison between the American Civil War and the current situation in Iraq, which was born out of your redefinition of why Iraq is in disorder (I think that happened after I posted death tolls and locales), once I demonstrated that unlike Iraq, mass violence occurred across the current states in the US and that it occurred in an astronomically higher proportion of death toll to population. So, now you come here, and what started out as a discussion over terrorists in Mexico then turned to a discussion over what you believe to is an easy task, sneaking nuclear weapons across the border. I stated it involved more sophisticated coordination, which leads to a heightened ability by our intel community to pick on the operation, in turn leading to a very difficult mission for the terrorists, especially in relation to 19 guys walking on planes with box cutters. I stated that this would not happen now, because now Americans clearly see the price of being passive in the face of any hijacker, stating clearly that the passengers on board were pacifists. You then tried to jump from 50 men against 4 on a plane to military situations in which troops are "overwhelmed," your words not mine, and they retreated, therefore in you tried to twist my logic to call these troops cowards and pacifists. I challenged you to present me with a battle in which troops retreated, giving no resistance (a condition of pacifism) against the enemy, and you came up with very vague examples. The example of the Mongols has been proven wrong, by me. As, tempting your foe into an ambush is not at all pacifism. If they were truly pacifistic, the foe, who chased, would have routed them...it did not happen. Your other three examples, the Israeli's, the Sudanese, and the Sri Lankans, are either lacking in historical timing, or completely inconclusive. Until I am proven wrong though, I will continue to maintain that while retreating they offered resistance to the attackers.
 
#72
#72
You flat stop arguing the comparison between the American Civil War and the current situation in Iraq, which was born out of your redefinition of why Iraq is in disorder (I think that happened after I posted death tolls and locales), once I demonstrated that unlike Iraq, mass violence occurred across the current states in the US and that it occurred in an astronomically higher proportion of death toll to population.

Curious where the Civil War played a part..........

The Civil War was a nasty conflict all the way around...............
 
#73
#73
I love how you clearly have no knowledge of my background but can make such a stupid judgement of me. Frankly your jumping all over the board and changing up the argument makes you one of the worst people I've ever discussed any of this with.

I never left the Civil War argument. You never came back with anything of substance to my point so why bother? Clearly on a micro level there are very similar circumstances in which the American Civil War along with many others were localized and not all over the country but yet it was still defined as a civil war. You decided to drop a few non-major skirmishes that occurred in remote areas away from the main theater. That did nothing for your point.

Let's correct your own revisionist thinking here just on this topic. You basically stated that the American people were brainwashed into pacifist thinking and some culture of surrender. I asked you for your line of thinking which then turned into Americans needs to be warlike like you.

You asked me for a historical example of where non-resistance was indeed non-cowardice. Then you changed it up to US and Allied once you were busted. I gave you specific examples and you claim to discredit the Mongol one. Your logic STILL does not work on that example since they did retreat without resisting only to essentially live to fight another day which was my original point.

Let's look at your own definition of pacifism and see that it applied to the Mongols. They retreated with non-resistance. Therefore by the definition you yourself provided this qualifies.

Without any evidence showing they offered resistance how can you make such a stupid assumption that they did? Are you inventing history? So evidence doesn't exist but you say it happened.

I give up. You change the conditions of the argument when you have been proven wrong and now you're saying you're right on events occurring when there is no evidence showing so.

Write some fiction. You have a very creative and inventive mind.
 
#74
#74
The mongols did not retreat to fight another day...they fought the same day. They also did not pass the buck to anyone else.
 
#75
#75
Every single time? You know this for a fact? Wow....do you time travel? Who said anything about passing the buck? There you go again dragging things from left field into the conversation....
 

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