@ Missouri 12/30/2020 (Final: TN 73, MO 53)

#126
#126
scottchatt said:
Wade Houston ring a bell?

I'm not a fan of Martin. Good, far from great, coach. Seems to be liked by his former players. I'm glad he's at Missouri instead of Tennessee.
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I sat through every miserable game Wade's last year. Yes, thanks for the reminder. I think the comparison of the two is a little different. Wade was from Maryville, had head coaching aspirations, and his son was not necessarily a lock. But yes, I can see making a comparison.
 
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#127
#127
cardvolfan said:
I'm not trying to judge his morality, but hiring Porter's father at Mizzou to solidify his chances at getting the Porter kids talent opened my eyes that Martin might not be so ethically straight. No, he didn't break rules and other coaches have done it, but most stay away from that because it wreaks of impropriety.
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What I find Intriguing about that situation is that some people like to say he was dealt some bad luck with Porter getting hurt. But even if Porter had not gotten injured, Cuonzo's track record shows that he would have still very likely underperformed as a coach. Cal should have been far and away better than they were with the teams CM had. TN should have been much better, especially his final season.

No bad luck in my opinion.
 
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#128
#128
PandamoniumReigns said:
What I find Intriguing about that situation is that some people like to say he was dealt some bad luck with Porter getting hurt. But even if Porter had not gotten injured, Cuonzo's track record shows that he would have still very likely underperformed as a coach. Cal should have been far and away better than they were with the teams CM had. TN should have been much better, especially his final season.

No bad luck in my opinion.
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I agree 100%.
 
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#129
#129
cardvolfan said:
I'm not trying to judge his morality, but hiring Porter's father at Mizzou to solidify his chances at getting the Porter kids talent opened my eyes that Martin might not be so ethically straight. No, he didn't break rules and other coaches have done it, but most stay away from that because it wreaks of impropriety.
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Notice how his recruiting tailed off towards the end of his stay here and he complained about not getting enough booster support? Then goes to Cal and immediately lands multiple 5 stars and his best 2 classes at Mizzou were his first 2? Cuonzo struggles to keep the boosters excited and that's directly tied to his recruiting arcs at every stop.
 
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#134
#134
cardvolfan said:
I'm not trying to judge his morality, but hiring Porter's father at Mizzou to solidify his chances at getting the Porter kids talent opened my eyes that Martin might not be so ethically straight. No, he didn't break rules and other coaches have done it, but most stay away from that because it wreaks of impropriety.
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Didn't he do something similar at Cal and started flaming out after season 1?
 
#136
#136
I was a supporter of CCM, but at times it really seemed like he had a hard time getting his teams to play consistently well. His defenses were always good, but man his offense was hard to watch most of the time. He also was not that great at developing players. Can you guys imagine what Coach Barnes could have done with players like Jarnell Stokes, Jordy Mac, or Josh Richardson???
 
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#137
#137
Stoked said:
I was a supporter of CCM, but at times it really seemed like he had a hard time getting his teams to play consistently well. His defenses were always good, but man his offense was hard to watch most of the time. He also was not that great at developing players. Can you guys imagine what Coach Barnes could have done with players like Jarnell Stokes, Jordy Mac, or Josh Richardson???
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His biggest problem was that his teams didn't gell until after the halfway point of the season, then would go on a pretty good tear, then be on the bubble at the end. Every year he seemed to dig a hole then have to work like crazy to get out of it.

That first season early loss to Austin Peay was really, really bad from a PR/fan relation standpoint. But the way the team finished the season, won the East (when divisions was still a thing) I think everyone got over it. But then the second season started the same way and once again ended the same way, and when his 3rd season did it again most fans were over him. Yeah we made the Sweet 16 and got very close to making the Elite 8 but I think he was in sort of Jerry Green territory. Not that he was a jerk like Green could be, but that he was just not popular enough anymore.
 
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#139
#139
The fans started to warm up to him right after the sweet 16. I remember having a conversation with a good friend about how maybe he was gonna work out after all. That's kind of how that works. You win and suddenly they love you. Then he jumped on the next train out of town. I'm not sure he even knew were it was going. It almost ran straight off into the Pacific Ocean.
 
#141
#141
Let’s see some more talk about the game itself. CCM is at Mizzou and not Tennessee. Let’s leave that for the Mizzou fans to discuss. With this being the first conference game as well as the first road game of the year, I’m sure we’ll see some struggles to begin the game. I’m predicting a lower scoring, defensive affair. Free throws and defense will be huge in this game. I believe the first to 70 wins the ball game. Excited to see how our freshman perform in their first road game. With there being pretty much no crowd, it should help a little. Really physical matchup and more than likely some foul trouble. If Tennessee knocks down their free throws and bring the energy on the defensive side, I see the Vols coming out with a win.
 
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#142
#142
Here's the thing - I think Cuonzo is a good guy, from all accounts his players loved him. But like most others stated, he is a mediocre to slightly above average coach. He'd be a good coach for a program that isn't historically good and could help stabilize the program and maybe get a couple tourney invites here and there.

He's been to three NCAA tournaments in twelve seasons as a HC. One regular season title, two other top three finishes, nine seasons of finishing fourth or worse.

As people have also mentioned, it was incredibly frustrating to see talented rosters come nowhere near close to their potential -

Those 2012-13 and 2013-14 Tennessee teams had three NBA players (Richardson, McRae, Stokes), solid CBB players in Maymon, Barton, Hubbs and Moore and all we got out of it was barely sneaking into the tournament (I believe the 5th to last team in the tournament) and while you can't control your draw, after the first four game against a pretty solid Iowa team, we got incredibly lucky getting to play a UMASS team that has been viewed as a ridiculously overseeded team in recent history and Mercer to a S16. The most frustrating part is that when this team clicked, they were soooo impressive and dang near impossible to beat, however, they consistently didn't play this way or show the effort. Heck, that S16 team was 15-11 at one point!

His Cal teams may have been a bigger indictment. His second Cal team had four draft picks, including Jaylen Brown who went #3 overall along with (Ty Wallace, Jabari Bird, Ivan Rabb (consensus top 10 recruit). This team also included Jordan Matthews who had a very solid college career. What did it get them? A tie for 3rd place in the Pac12 and a first round exit in the tournament. His other teams at Cal were no slouches talent wise either and they didn't sniff the NCAA tournament.

And then for those saying, "well he was a good defensive coach" - actually, he was not really any better or worse than Barnes or Pearl - Pearl was more consistent and Barnes has had more elite defenses. We just think that because Cuonzo brought a slower, Big Ten style of basketball to the SEC. For reference below are the adjusted defense efficiency ratings for these three coaches over the years, I included Tyndall as well for curiosity. (Adjusted by accounting for opponents, tempo, points per possession, etc).

Pearl (starting in 2008 since I don't have the data prior): 24th, 72nd, 16th, and 39th

Martin: 37th, 102nd (this season also includes those infamous Virginia and Georgetown games), and 17th

Tyndall: 146th lol

Barnes: 141st, 50th, 6th, 42nd, 57th, currently 3rd this season.
 
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#143
#143
wisvol22 said:
Here's the thing - I think Cuonzo is a good guy, from all accounts his players loved him. But like most others stated, he is a mediocre to slightly above average coach. He'd be a good coach for a program that isn't historically good and could help stabilize the program and maybe get a couple tourney invites here and there.

He's been to three NCAA tournaments in twelve seasons as a HC. One regular season title, two other top three finishes, nine seasons of finishing fourth or worse.

As people have also mentioned, it was incredibly frustrating to see talented rosters come nowhere near close to their potential -

Those 2012-13 and 2013-14 Tennessee teams had three NBA players (Richardson, McRae, Stokes), solid CBB players in Maymon, Barton, Hubbs and Moore and all we got out of it was barely sneaking into the tournament (I believe the 5th to last team in the tournament) and while you can't control your draw, after the first four game against a pretty solid Iowa team, we got incredibly lucky getting to play a UMASS team that has been viewed as a ridiculously overseeded team in recent history and Mercer to a S16. The most frustrating part is that when this team clicked, they were soooo impressive and dang near impossible to beat, however, they consistently didn't play this way or show the effort. Heck, that S16 team was 15-11 at one point!

His Cal teams may have been a bigger indictment. His second Cal team had four draft picks, including Jaylen Brown who went #3 overall along with (Ty Wallace, Jabari Bird, Ivan Rabb (consensus top 10 recruit). This team also included Jordan Matthews who had a very solid college career. What did it get them? A tie for 3rd place in the Pac12 and a first round exit in the tournament. His other teams at Cal were no slouches talent wise either and they didn't sniff the NCAA tournament.

And then for those saying, "well he was a good defensive coach" - actually, he was not really any better or worse than Barnes or Pearl - Pearl was more consistent and Barnes has had more elite defenses. We just think that because Cuonzo brought a slower, Big Ten style of basketball to the SEC. For reference below are the adjusted defense efficiency ratings for these three coaches over the years, I included Tyndall as well for curiosity. (Adjusted by accounting for opponents, tempo, points per possession, etc).

Pearl (starting in 2008 since I don't have the data prior): 24th, 72nd, 16th, and 39th

Martin: 37th, 102nd (this season also includes those infamous Virginia and Georgetown games), and 17th

Tyndall: 146th lol

Barnes: 141st, 50th, 6th, 42nd, 57th, currently 3rd this season.
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Really good post. Lots of meat in what you say. Thanks.
 
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#144
#144
PandamoniumReigns said:
Being an assistant to Brad Stephens just shows he should be an assistant and nothing more. He will never be an elite coach. I would barely classify him as good, but I'm just a message board poster. And the reason he never had a season worse was that he used the UT plane to interview for Cal and left a dumpster fire for TN. If he had stayed, that season would have been bad. Real bad. And he knows it.

Admittedly I'm biased. This guy came in preaching ethics and moral character. But the way he left TN shows he is as much a sleaze as Bruce was. Don't preach ethics and high moral character if you don't have it yourself.
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Man, you are clueless lol. Do you argue about everything, even when you are wrong?
 
#148
#148
iKrager said:
Man, you are clueless lol. Do you argue about everything, even when you are wrong?
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What part of my post is wrong? I'm not arguing. I'm merely stating opinion. I do not think he is an elite coach.

Do you always get this bent out of shape when someone offers an opinion different than your own? The world is going to eat you up if so.
 
#149
#149
wisvol22 said:
Here's the thing - I think Cuonzo is a good guy, from all accounts his players loved him. But like most others stated, he is a mediocre to slightly above average coach. He'd be a good coach for a program that isn't historically good and could help stabilize the program and maybe get a couple tourney invites here and there.

He's been to three NCAA tournaments in twelve seasons as a HC. One regular season title, two other top three finishes, nine seasons of finishing fourth or worse.

As people have also mentioned, it was incredibly frustrating to see talented rosters come nowhere near close to their potential -

Those 2012-13 and 2013-14 Tennessee teams had three NBA players (Richardson, McRae, Stokes), solid CBB players in Maymon, Barton, Hubbs and Moore and all we got out of it was barely sneaking into the tournament (I believe the 5th to last team in the tournament) and while you can't control your draw, after the first four game against a pretty solid Iowa team, we got incredibly lucky getting to play a UMASS team that has been viewed as a ridiculously overseeded team in recent history and Mercer to a S16. The most frustrating part is that when this team clicked, they were soooo impressive and dang near impossible to beat, however, they consistently didn't play this way or show the effort. Heck, that S16 team was 15-11 at one point!

His Cal teams may have been a bigger indictment. His second Cal team had four draft picks, including Jaylen Brown who went #3 overall along with (Ty Wallace, Jabari Bird, Ivan Rabb (consensus top 10 recruit). This team also included Jordan Matthews who had a very solid college career. What did it get them? A tie for 3rd place in the Pac12 and a first round exit in the tournament. His other teams at Cal were no slouches talent wise either and they didn't sniff the NCAA tournament.

And then for those saying, "well he was a good defensive coach" - actually, he was not really any better or worse than Barnes or Pearl - Pearl was more consistent and Barnes has had more elite defenses. We just think that because Cuonzo brought a slower, Big Ten style of basketball to the SEC. For reference below are the adjusted defense efficiency ratings for these three coaches over the years, I included Tyndall as well for curiosity. (Adjusted by accounting for opponents, tempo, points per possession, etc).

Pearl (starting in 2008 since I don't have the data prior): 24th, 72nd, 16th, and 39th

Martin: 37th, 102nd (this season also includes those infamous Virginia and Georgetown games), and 17th

Tyndall: 146th lol

Barnes: 141st, 50th, 6th, 42nd, 57th, currently 3rd this season.
Click to expand...
Solid thoughts. Spot on.
 
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