Morally Acceptable?

With reference to the question in the OP, is this morally acceptable?

  • Total voters
    0
#26
#26
I went with non-issue but that is probably too strong a statement.

Ultimately, water boarding and killing UBL were okay with me as they occurred. I do see the dilemma of supporting the death as it went down but being against water boarding.
 
#27
#27
volinbham said:
I went with non-issue but that is probably too strong a statement.

Ultimately, water boarding and killing UBL were okay with me as they occurred.
Click to expand...

I knew starting this thread, that it would be a little controversial and divisive. I did not foresee the firestorm that I apparently kicked off.

TXVOL was much more prescient that I.
 
#28
#28
To the first part how would this outcome have been more "moral" than having a B-2 or couble drones level the place? There's have been a pre-bombing trial? The guy was the #1 most wanted terrorist leader in the world and now he's dead...I like it.

The torture thing makes me squirm a little but only when dealing with uncertainty. In fact that scares me a little. I really don't like the idea of torturing somebody because they "might" know something. OTOH you show me someone that I know has information that could save innocent lives and it's on. I have never and will never have a problem trading the comfort of the guilty for the safety of the innocent. It's in the certainty of the situation that gives me the heebee jeebees.
 
#29
#29
therealUT said:
I would like to imagine that morals and ethics are more concrete than that; yet, I do understand that many in society do not have a solid grounding in the philosophical fundamentals of their moral stances.
Click to expand...

Terrorists are absolutely not within the confines of the Geneva. They violate several of the provisions. But, they are within the confines of the UN and thus "international law."

As to this point, "They are simply being 'worked' for further intel."

Would it be justified for the US to remotely install and utilize advanced malware placed on foreign computers and networks to extract information?

The idea that our laws protect our people is quite true. But in a very broad sense, our laws reflect our morals. Therefore, in a broad sense, if we apply our morality to the situation, we should also apply our law.

If we do not, we may be lawful, in that our law doesn't apply or specifically state, but we aren't exactly being moral, by our own standards.

As to above quote, I just don't see morals and ethics to be some innate quality possessed by all. Certainly the morals and ethics of one individual differs. Certainly the morals and ethics of one country to another differ, as well.
 
#30
#30
hndog609 said:
To the first part how would this outcome have been more "moral" than having a B-2 or couble drones level the place? There's have been a pre-bombing trial? The guy was the #1 most wanted terrorist leader in the world and now he's dead...I like it.

The torture thing makes me squirm a little but only when dealing with uncertainty. In fact that scares me a little. I really don't like the idea of torturing somebody because they "might" know something. OTOH you show me someone that I know has information that could save innocent lives and it's on. I have never and will never have a problem trading the comfort of the guilty for the safety of the innocent. It's in the certainty of the situation that gives me the heebee jeebees.
Click to expand...

This is why I qualified my "non-issue". You are right, dropping a bomb is as bad or worse than a bullet to the head for an unarmed target.

On torture I wouldn't advocate it as policy but if it is reserved for extreme cases (as you suggest) then I see the value.

It may be too fine a line but I would also say that water boarding is "torture-light" compared to the car battery, fingernail removal, etc. etc.
 
#31
#31
fl0at said:
Would it be justified for the US to remotely install and utilize advanced malware placed on foreign computers and networks to extract information?
Click to expand...

I have no argument with the rest of your response.

Were you still in in 2008, when DoD sent the directive down that no more flash drives could be used on DoD computers?

There is an interesting story regarding that and the Chinese doing just what you have stated.

I have the feeling that if the Chinese are doing then we are doing it as well.
 
#32
#32
volinbham said:
It may be too fine a line but I would also say that water boarding is "torture-light" compared to the car battery, fingernail removal, etc. etc.
Click to expand...

Not too fine a line. Waterboarding is pretty non-invasive and does not lead to any lasting impact. In fact, according to KSM, waterboarding allowed him to release information without having to commit any sort of sin.
 
#35
#35
therealUT said:
Were you still in in 2008, when DoD sent the directive down that no more flash drives could be used on DoD computers?
Click to expand...

I popped smoke in late 2006**. Never got that word. Surprised it took them that long to pass it down, though.

As to the Chinese doing it, oh yea. As to us doing it, definitely. No doubt in my mind.

If you recall the WBC thread on Anon a while back, dig into their hack on HBGary*.

They (HBGary*) were working on an in computer device that would be virtually undetectable, install an advanced rootkit and leave the peripheral (PCIMCIA/USB port) fully functional.

We do it, absolutely.
 
Last edited:
#36
#36
Another moral puzzler - do you think any people that are opposed to the death penalty are cool with taking out UBL this way?
 
#38
#38
volinbham said:
Another moral puzzler - do you think any people that are opposed to the death penalty are cool with taking out UBL this way?
Click to expand...

Yes. You can be against the death penalty and be okay with OBL being killed because him being alive will cause more evil vs the evil created when he was killed
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#40
#40
VolsNSkinsFan said:
Yes. You can be against the death penalty and be okay with OBL being killed because him being alive will cause more evil vs the evil created when he was killed
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

Wouldn't killing serial murderers also cause less evil than if they were allowed to live?
 
#41
#41
The fact is that there are many shades of grey, but we try to group things into black or white.
 
#43
#43
volinbham said:
Another moral puzzler - do you think any people that are opposed to the death penalty are cool with taking out UBL this way?
Click to expand...

I haven't met a lot of people that are morally against the death penalty. I have met a lot of people that are against the death penalty because they think it serves no purpose.

I'd be interested in hearing the moral side of that argument, though.

And, I will say this, I hate the double standard of the medical community on this issue. Most medical associations are firmly against practitioners taking part in the process.

Even to the point that verifying that the individual is dead is against the "view" of several of the organizations.

Complete and utter ridiculousness.
 
#44
#44
VolsNSkinsFan said:
Yes. You can be against the death penalty and be okay with OBL being killed because him being alive will cause more evil vs the evil created when he was killed
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

A serial killer being alive could not cause such evil?
 
#47
#47
therealUT said:
Wouldn't killing serial murderers also cause less evil than if they were allowed to live?
Click to expand...

I was confused by his response too, but I take it thusly:

If we imprison OBL, followers will lash out on others over his treatment, confinement, percieved torture and mistreatment, release, trial, etc.

Most serial killers don't have followers, and thus no reprisal in their sole confinement... Most don't, but there are exceptions.
 
#49
#49
therealUT said:
Wouldn't killing serial murderers also cause less evil than if they were allowed to live?
Click to expand...

I think an argument could be made that having UBL in custody could cause a whole bunch of long term headaches that get circumvented by simply making him shark chow.

I'll admit there's a certain attraction to the idea of taking him "secretly" alive and telling him if he doesn't talk to us there's some Russians or Israelis that'd love to take a crack at him.
 
#50
#50
VolsNSkinsFan said:
It depends on a case by case basis
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...



If you want to be against the DP because the system might get it wrong, and you don't want the innocent blood on your hands. I respect that choice.


If you want to defend each killer to the extent of evil. I'm not a fan.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top