More Global Warming Profiteering by Obama Energy Official

[IPorange]

why couldnt' the waves coming in and out rotate a turbine and create energy? seems simple. i'm no engineer though so i'm sure there are good reasons.

The way I would imagine doing it would be to position the turbines at the mouth of a long narrow bay or inlet, as that creates a stronger tidal current. You could even make artificial bays or inlets with sea walls, added on to existing ones. The longer they are, the more tidal flow you are going to create. It's almost like a river that reverses course every 12 hours when you have a good and long one.


Here's a clip from the place with the strongest tides in the world, the Bay of Fundy:

YouTube - Bay of Fundy

 

[volinbham]

why couldnt' the waves coming in and out rotate a turbine and create energy? seems simple. i'm no engineer though so i'm sure there are good reasons.

They also do methods where an object floats and moves up and down around a center pole - kinda like the float in a toiltet. Not sure what the generation mechanism is though...

 

[IPorange]

They also do methods where an object floats and moves up and down around a center pole - kinda like the float in a toiltet. Not sure what the generation mechanism is though...

I guess it'd be the leverage action itself?

 

[gsvol]

Those turbines cut up birds and bats and spit them out like giant salad shooters. Also, the amount of energy they produce for their cost of maintenance just doesn't seem worth the trouble.


I wonder why tidal generators haven't really caught on?

1. they bump porpoises in the head giving them a BC headache # 138.

2. they interfere with the view from Malibou.

3. they cause endangered sea urchins to become nervous.

4. they endanger sea otteer populations.

5. they might make sense in a nonsensical enviro-world.

 

[kev20]

Nation's first offshore wind farm approved for Nantucket Sound - CNN.com

 

[volinbham]

Now that Teddy is gone his precious view is less important I guess.

 

[gsvol]

ethanol was a straight payout to the farmers. nothing more, nothing less.

People like you are why Mao called America a paper tiger.

“Our farmers deserve praise, not condemnation; and their efficiency should be cause for gratitude, not something for which they are penalized.”
– President John F. Kennedy

“Cultivators are the most valuable citizens…they are tied to their country.”
– President Thomas Jefferson

“In no other country do so few people produce so much food, to feed so many, at such reasonable prices.”
– President Dwight D. Eisenhower
(even while the USSR was dumping all the grain they could while starving tens of millions of their own citizens to death while they tried to bring us down.)

“Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you’re a thousand miles from the corn field.”
– President Dwight D. Eisenhower

“It will not be doubted that with reference either to individual or national welfare, agriculture is of primary importance.”
– President George Washington

“Burn down your cities and leave our farms, and your cities will spring up again as if by magic; but destroy our farms and the grass will grow in the streets of every city in the country.”
– William Jennings Bryan

“The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways.”
– President John F. Kennedy

The following is a letter from Benjamin Franklin to the London Chronical, it should be mandatroy reading.

The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, Volume III: London, 1757 - 1775 -- On the Price of Corn, and Management of the Poor

For my own part, I am not so well satisfied of the goodness of this thing. I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. -- I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.

In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.
----------------------------------

In short, you offered a premium for the encouragement of idleness, and you should not now wonder that it has had its effect in the increase of poverty.

 

[TennTradition]

nm

 

[droski]

People like you are why Mao called America a paper tiger.

“Our farmers deserve praise, not condemnation; and their efficiency should be cause for gratitude, not something for which they are penalized.”
– President John F. Kennedy

“Cultivators are the most valuable citizens…they are tied to their country.”
– President Thomas Jefferson

“In no other country do so few people produce so much food, to feed so many, at such reasonable prices.”
– President Dwight D. Eisenhower
(even while the USSR was dumping all the grain they could while starving tens of millions of their own citizens to death while they tried to bring us down.)

“Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you’re a thousand miles from the corn field.”
– President Dwight D. Eisenhower

“It will not be doubted that with reference either to individual or national welfare, agriculture is of primary importance.”
– President George Washington

“Burn down your cities and leave our farms, and your cities will spring up again as if by magic; but destroy our farms and the grass will grow in the streets of every city in the country.”
– William Jennings Bryan

“The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways.”
– President John F. Kennedy

The following is a letter from Benjamin Franklin to the London Chronical, it should be mandatroy reading.

The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, Volume III: London, 1757 - 1775 -- On the Price of Corn, and Management of the Poor

me thinks there is a big difference between saying farmers should be appreciated and subidizing them by artificially inflating corn prices and paying them not to grow. do you think it's a coincidence that the primary support for ethanol comes from the corn states?

 

[orangeblooded2]

wind energy has been a disaster too.

American Thinker: Wind Energy's Ghosts

1st offshore wind farm approved

 

[TennTradition]

me thinks there is a big difference between saying farmers should be appreciated and subidizing them by artificially inflating corn prices and paying them not to grow. do you think it's a coincidence that the primary support for ethanol comes from the corn states?

I am completely confused by his post. Thus the nm post above. At first I replied, then I thought it had to b sarcasm, so I deleted my response. I'm not sure how corn ethanol mandates can be viewed as anything but a payout to the corn states.

I will say that the true uselessness of corn ethanol was not obvious at the time that the emphasis was being put on that bio-fuel; however, it was still a vote-grab.

 

[gsvol]

me thinks there is a big difference between saying farmers should be appreciated and subidizing them by artificially inflating corn prices and paying them not to grow. do you think it's a coincidence that the primary support for ethanol comes from the corn states?

Support from the politicians of corn sates but you said;

ethanol was a straight payout to the farmers. nothing more, nothing less.

and the farmers profit less than any group in the equation.

Make no mistake I am diametrically opposed to ethanol mandates for lots of reasons. Profiteering farmers is not one of them.

Ethanol mandates weren't and aren't a straight payout to farmers, although some features of most all agriculture bills are abused by a few politicians or politically connected indivuals who make hefty campaign donations but you can blame that on a corrupt or stupid Washington, not the few farmers we have left in America.

There was/is a lot more to it than 'payouts' to farmers.

 

[droski]

who are you arguing is profiting the most from ethanol?

 

[gsvol]

who are you arguing is profiting the most from ethanol?

Who do you think??

Farmers benefit least of all and remember farmers involved in livestock production saw their feed bill more that double.

I don't have hard data at hand to support this but here are the major benfactors imo:

1. Ethanol producers who couldn't operate without huge subsidies and grants from the federal government. There may be some smaller startups but I would guess the linon's share of those moneys go to some of the girant corporations already involved in the energy business. Investors in those businesses who were in the know that an ethanol mandate was in the works.

2. Huge international corporations such as ADM, in the food production and wholesale grain businesses and well positioned investors in the futures grain markets. Some who had large stores of grain they had bought cheaply and were able to empty their silos at the new higher prices being paid because producers of ethanol had to buy because of the mandates.

3. Some politicians who convinced the people of their respective states that said politican had done them a big favor.

4. Middle men, commodities traders etc etc.

From about a year ago.

Then too, it is important to point out that politicians couldn't really make the claim that ethanol mandates would significantly reduce CO2 emmission so they made the claim it would reduce dependence on foreign oil.

If making the US less dependent on foreign oil was the motivating factor, it makes a lot more sense to drill domestic oil fields and built our own refineries than to isssue ethanol mandates.

 

[droski]

Who do you think??

Farmers benefit least of all and remember farmers involved in livestock production saw their feed bill more that double.

I don't have hard data at hand to support this but here are the major benfactors imo:

1. Ethanol producers who couldn't operate without huge subsidies and grants from the federal government. There may be some smaller startups but I would guess the linon's share of those moneys go to some of the girant corporations already involved in the energy business. Investors in those businesses who were in the know that an ethanol mandate was in the works.

2. Huge international corporations such as ADM, in the food production and wholesale grain businesses and well positioned investors in the futures grain markets. Some who had large stores of grain they had bought cheaply and were able to empty their silos at the new higher prices being paid because producers of ethanol had to buy because of the mandates.

3. Some politicians who convinced the people of their respective states that said politican had done them a big favor.

4. Middle men, commodities traders etc etc.

From about a year ago.

Then too, it is important to point out that politicians couldn't really make the claim that ethanol mandates would significantly reduce CO2 emmission so they made the claim it would reduce dependence on foreign oil.

If making the US less dependent on foreign oil was the motivating factor, it makes a lot more sense to drill domestic oil fields and built our own refineries than to isssue ethanol mandates.

no question the seed people (think monsanto) made money and the ethanol producers made money (some sold their company stock for millions before the ethanol price collapsed), the politicians as well, but the question is where did this support for ethanol come from? and the fact is it came from states with large corn production and states where a lot of money from farmers go to the politicians.

 

[gsvol]

no question the seed people (think monsanto) made money and the ethanol producers made money (some sold their company stock for millions before the ethanol price collapsed), the politicians as well, but the question is where did this support for ethanol come from? and the fact is it came from states with large corn production and states where a lot of money from farmers go to the politicians.

That could be an accurate perception, at least to the public at large but all the usual suspects in the democrat party and lots of republicans who wanted to be perceived as 'green' voted for and publicly supported the legislation.

The fact is that ethanol mandates were dreamed up in Washington (or maybe Moscow) and of course those states and some of the farmers in those states plus all the local politicians were easily recruited to come on board because it meant more revenue for those states.

The most support came from the well funded and refined communicators of the enviro lobby with their ever present avid assistance in LSM.

And too this was a worldwide move. For instance in Ethiopia a lot of small farmers were convinced that growing corn for ethanol was a good theng for them and they lost bigtime, the weather and soil weren't suitable for growing corn. Brazil saw thousands of acres of rain forest disappear so that cultivators could produce fodder for ethanol distilleries.

Bottom line I don't think it appropriate to blame farmers as being the cause, complicit perhaps but certainly secondary and not the main cause at all.

 

[droski]

i think they were the cause of focusing on corn for ethanol production rather than other higher sugar plants, but i don't think we are far off here.

 

[jvol1]

Brazil saw thousands of acres of rain forest disappear so that cultivators could produce fodder for ethanol distilleries.

I want no part of this debate. But I'm sure most of Brazil's Ethanol comes from sugar cane, which actually does result in a favorable yield of energy out to energy put in . . . unlike corn.

 

[TennTradition]

I want no part of this debate. But I'm sure most of Brazil's Ethanol comes from sugar cane, which actually does result in a favorable yield of energy out to energy put in . . . unlike corn.

Agreed.

 

[gsvol]

1st offshore wind farm approved

They won't endanger sea gullibles or interfere with the view from Fire Island will they??

Catastrophic Failure of a Wind Turbine (On the beaten path)

Since wind turbines have been coming down all over the world, Noble officials probably figured it could happen here. But instead of transparency they chose secrecy.

A blade on a wind turbine in Sheffield has broken in strong winds for the second time in 15 months.

From mechanical failure to failure to produce in cold and icy conditions worldwide, wind and solar just aren't the energy panacea they are presented to be.


Robert Bryce: Windmills Are Killing Our Birds - WSJ.com

According to the American Wind Energy Association, the industry's trade association, each megawatt of installed wind-power results in the killing of between one and six birds per year. At the end of 2008, the U.S. had about 25,000 megawatts of wind turbines.

By 2030, environmental and lobby groups are pushing for the U.S. to be producing 20% of its electricity from wind. Meeting that goal, according to the Department of Energy, will require the U.S. to have about 300,000 megawatts of wind capacity, a 12-fold increase over 2008 levels. If that target is achieved, we can expect some 300,000 birds, at the least, to be killed by wind turbines each year.

If others pay fines, why should wind have a get out of jail free card??

i think they were the cause of focusing on corn for ethanol production rather than other higher sugar plants, but i don't think we are far off here.

I really thought it was the ethanol producers themselves who wanted corn. Don't know that for sure.

The farmer should have the right to plant whatever he wishes.

I don't know the relative expected yield per acre nor just how much either might produce in ethanol.

The point is we are using good farm land to produce energy instead of food and this progresses each year.

I want no part of this debate. But I'm sure most of Brazil's Ethanol comes from sugar cane, which actually does result in a favorable yield of energy out to energy put in . . . unlike corn.

I think you are right about that.

Still though rain forests cut down with government subsidies, doesn't this result in the opposite of the stated green godess goals???

By the way, to the best of my understanding land cleared in the Amazon from what was previously rain forests, isn't particularly good farm land and can't be expected to have very high yields more than just a few years.

Meanwhile we are guaranteeing loans for Brazil for them to drill oil wells offshore yet we so restrict our own drilling that it is almost nonexistant.

Any way you look at it, it doesn't all add up to make sense for the American people.

 

[droski]

"The point is we are using good farm land to produce energy instead of food and this progresses each year."

agreed it's idiocy

 

[gsvol]

"The point is we are using good farm land to produce energy instead of food and this progresses each year."

agreed it's idiocy

And there is no talk of repealing it or even public discussion of the relative merits of ethanol mandates.

That's the problem with government action, they never seem to reconsider anything. Once it is passed then we are stuck with it forever.

Makes me think the old 'do nothing' party could make a resurgence these days.

The 'do nothing' party ran on the platform that everything every politician we had ever sent to washington had done the wrong things, so the do nothings promised if elected they would absolutely do nothing to exacerbate atters.

 

[MG1968]

subsidies aside (if it's possible), if farmers want to sell their corn to make ethanol, and it pays them more, what's the complaint?

 

[droski]

subsidies aside (if it's possible), if farmers want to sell their corn to make ethanol, and it pays them more, what's the complaint?

the complaint is they paid off the gov't to get ethanol mandatory in the first place.

 

[KB5252]

Exactly right, had this been a private endeavor ethanol would have proven an unmitigated failure and dropped long ago. As it stands now we have no choice, when the federal government cuts deals and awards people handouts they are very rarely undone because of the political consequences and fall out.