National day of Prayer Sept. 25, 2009?????

#177
#177
rjd970 said:
I think it is absolutely reasonable that some would choose to believe the Bible at face value. I am simply stating why I don't. And I don't remember saying it was based on "something I read", I think you might have me mistaken with another poster.

All I am saying is that, at its foundation, the message of the Bible was chosen by a council of men. These men were church leaders and scholars, and therfore by decree at that time, government officials. The writings concerning Jesus's life were handpicked so that we know nothing about him between infancy and adulthood. I am not making any claims what their specific motives were, but what I am saying, is that given the history of early church leaders, I don't think truth and historical accuracy had high priority. I'm sure other ulterior motives....such as how this would effect social norms at the time & leadership claim to power and authority...affected which books were chosen and which weren't.

It is your prerogative if you believe the Bible is the literal word of God. I am just stating why I don't think it is. I honestly don't want to offend you, just stating my position.
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See what I mean....

:hi:

The bold part is bs, but a solid post!
 
#179
#179
OrangeEmpire said:
RJD is a solid poster who knows his stuff, although he gets quite carried away with the name me just one stuff. Then you name one and he never replies back.

If it weren't for people like him, this board would be dead.

:hi:
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I like getting people riled up, but I genuinely like talking about this stuff and find it very worthwhile. Even if you don't.
 
#181
#181
OrangeEmpire said:
See what I mean....

:hi:

The bold part is bs, but a solid post!
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I really don't want to offend people, but I can't help if if they do get offended. When talking about religion, I generally find people's skin gets thin.

Go look at some of the crap I talked to with Gator fans this week. I actually set out to offend them and they just blow me off. I even murmer what I think in a thread like this and people think it is a direct attack on what they believe. Sometimes I think you do.
 
#183
#183
OrangeEmpire said:

You are newbie.......

1.) Don't ever take any thing personal on this board.

2.) By all means, don't ever take me seriously.

3.) Have fun...........

4.) RDJ deep down really, really loves me....

:wub:

:hi:
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Sound advice from a true veteran of VN. I appreciate it.
 
#184
#184
rjd970 said:
I think it is absolutely reasonable that some would choose to believe the Bible at face value. I am simply stating why I don't. And I don't remember saying it was based on "something I read", I think you might have me mistaken with another poster.
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I'm assuming you were getting your information on the new canon by "reading something", as the only other alternative would be that you were actually there when it was being done. :)

rjd970 said:
All I am saying is that, at its foundation, the message of the Bible was chosen by a council of men with divine intervention. These men were church leaders and scholars, and therfore by decree at that time, government officials.
Click to expand...

fyp

rjd970 said:
It is your prerogative if you believe the Bible is the literal word of God. I am just stating why I don't think it is. I honestly don't want to offend you, just stating my position.
Click to expand...

No offense taken.
 
#185
#185
Like I said, rdj is solid..... if we could get TRUT in here, this would go to a different level. He is a our resident catholic historian.
 
#186
#186
OrangeEmpire said:
So you believe that is a mandate to close the doors and become a social club?

:mf_surrender:
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No not to become a social club, its just a refrence to what alot of modern day churches have become. They have gone away from the teachings of Christ and God's Word and teach these "social doctrines".
 
#187
#187
With regards to genuine first hand accounts of Jesus' life and ministry:

Two of the Gospel accounts of Jesus' life were written by apostles and first hand witnesses to the events: Matthew and John. John was one of the three most intimate associates of Jesus (along with John's brother James and Peter), being an eyewitness to and participant in Jesus' earthly ministry. The early church father Irenaeus (ca. AD 130-200) was a disciple of Polycarp (ca. AD 70-160), who was a disciple of the apostle John, and he (Irenaeus) testified on Polycarp's authority that John wrote the gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia Minor when he was advanced in age (Against Heresies 2.22.5;3.1.1).

The canonicity and authorship of Matthew's gospel account was unchallenged in the early church as well. Eusebius (ca. AD 265-339) quotes Origen (ca. AD 185-254): Among the four Gospels, which are the only indisputable ones in the Church of God under heaven, I have learned by tradition that the first was written by Matthew, who was once a publican, but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, and it was prepared for the converts from Judaism (Ecclesiastical History, 6:25).

John also wrote three of the epistles as well as revelations. Remember, John was one of Jesus' closest companions during His ministry.

The various gospels and letters of the New Testament were written in AD 50-100 (Jesus having died and risen approximately AD 33, IIRC).
The earliest copies of it: a fragment from ca. AD 114
several books from ca. AD 200,
most of the N.T. from ca. AD 250
complete N.T. from ca. 325

"To be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament." John Warwick Montgomery

For comparisons sake, the history of Thucydides (c. 460-400 BC) is known to us from eight manuscripts, the earliest belonging to c. AD 900, and a few papyrus scraps, belonging to about the beginning of the Christian era. The same is true of the History of Herodotus (BC 488-428). Yet no classical scholar would listen to an argument that the authenticity of Herodotus or Thucydides is in doubt because the earliest manuscripts of their works which are of any use to us are over 1,300 years later than the originals.

Number of manuscripts available for the New Testament: 24,970
Number of manuscripts available for the Iliad: 642
 
#188
#188
Prophecy:

God declares that prophecy is the way to know if something is from Him:
Deuteronomy 18:21-22: ""You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'
"When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."
Isaiah 41:21-23: ""Present your case," the LORD says.
"Bring forward your strong arguments,"
The King of Jacob says.
"Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place;
As for the former events, declare what they were,
That we may consider them and know their outcome.
Or announce to us what is coming;
Declare the things that are going to come afterward,
That we may know that you are gods;
Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together. "

Prophesy is a probability based test. The more detailed the prophesy, the smaller the probability of it's fulfillment and the more amazing. Only God can prophesy with 100% accuracy.

The Bible contains more than 1000 prophecies. 668 are known to be fulfilled, with none ever proven to be false. There are three that have not yet been confirmed. Virtually all unfulfilled prophecies relate to Christ's second coming and the end times.

For example:
In 586 B.C. (the eleventh year of the reign of Jehoiakim) the prophet Ezekiel was given a detailed prophecy regarding the powerful seaport of Tyre. At the time, Tyre was perhaps the strongest port in that part of the world. The prophecy in Ezekiel (26:3-16) outlined several detailed fates that awaited Tyre:
-Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the city on the mainland.
-More than one nation would come against it.
-The city would be flattened like the top of a bare rock.
-The area would become a site for spreading nets.
-Stones and timbers would be thrown into the water.
-The city would not be rebuilt.
-Nearby rulers would give up their thrones.

Archaeology confirms Ezekiel. Stone tables have been found with a nearly complete text of Ezekiel dating from 600-500 B.C. (the time of Ezekiel). This verifies the existence of the prophecy before it's fulfillment.

Historical fulfillment: In 586 B.C., Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland, forcing people to the island portion of the city. In 332 B.C., Alexander the Great began a siege of the island city. In order to reach it, he scraped the stones and timbers from the mainland city into the water to form a great causeway. Due to the successful siege, many neighboring rulers surrendered to Alexander without a fight. Today the ancient mainland portion of Tyre remains a flat rock where local fishermen dry out their nets.
 
#189
#189
Wow... thanks JP. Now that's a history lesson! I think RJD's questions were perhaps more the "exclusion" of some of the books, not necessarily questions about the ones that were included. If that's not right RJD then please let me know.

JP... you got any history knowledge you can provide about the books/authors that were excluded?
 
#190
#190
I'll try to look it up. This book is an awesome source of such information, I would highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in the matter. My copy is at home and I'm at work right now. :good!:

Of course, setting aside the argument concerning what books were left out, what I posted above is a strong argument to seriously consider the Old Testament as well as two of the Gospels and several of the Epistles. Salvation can be found in those... :angel:
 
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#191
#191
rjd970 said:
I really don't want to offend people, but I can't help if if they do get offended. When talking about religion, I generally find people's skin gets thin.

Go look at some of the crap I talked to with Gator fans this week. I actually set out to offend them and they just blow me off. I even murmer what I think in a thread like this and people think it is a direct attack on what they believe. Sometimes I think you do.
Click to expand...

So you are really shocked when people take their God and comments about Him more seriously than comments about their football team?
 
#192
#192
rjd970 said:
I like getting people riled up, but I genuinely like talking about this stuff and find it very worthwhile. Even if you don't.
Click to expand...

If you think it's a lie, it's fiction and it's of no value to you, why do you like to talk about it?
 
#193
#193
JZVOL said:
So you are really shocked when people take their God and comments about Him more seriously than comments about their football team?
Click to expand...

No, I'm not shocked. I just don't understand why we have to follow different rules of conversation with religion.
 
#195
#195
Religion, well, its a difficult thing to discuss, intelligently. No Christian church teaches from the Bible, the way it is written. If that was true, women would not be allowed to be pastors, women would not work, they would be subordinate to man(Genesis 3:16). So the church has evolved to allow those changes. But has the church disobeyed God by doing so. Another example is the death penalty. You see churches preaching against the the Death Penalty because its against what God teaches us, but several passages in the bible quote the opposite(Genesis 9:6 and Exodus 21:23). Are they not going against the word of God. If you ask them that, then they will say, "Well we teach from the New Testament". But in doing so, you're only teaching half of Gods word. The bible , in its teachings, are strict and to the point. Most people do not want to believe that they are living "in sin", so they denounce the Bible and the word of God as false and childish fantasy. They want to believe that one can live his/her life as they please, regardless of moral and ethical behavior, and there will be no price to pay. I leave you with this.

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. [2 Timothy 4:3-4]
 
#196
#196
J-P said:
Prophecy:

God declares that prophecy is the way to know if something is from Him:
Deuteronomy 18:21-22: ""You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'
"When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."
Isaiah 41:21-23: ""Present your case," the LORD says.
"Bring forward your strong arguments,"
The King of Jacob says.
"Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place;
As for the former events, declare what they were,
That we may consider them and know their outcome.
Or announce to us what is coming;
Declare the things that are going to come afterward,
That we may know that you are gods;
Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together. "

Prophesy is a probability based test. The more detailed the prophesy, the smaller the probability of it's fulfillment and the more amazing. Only God can prophesy with 100% accuracy.

The Bible contains more than 1000 prophecies. 668 are known to be fulfilled, with none ever proven to be false. There are three that have not yet been confirmed. Virtually all unfulfilled prophecies relate to Christ's second coming and the end times.

For example:
In 586 B.C. (the eleventh year of the reign of Jehoiakim) the prophet Ezekiel was given a detailed prophecy regarding the powerful seaport of Tyre. At the time, Tyre was perhaps the strongest port in that part of the world. The prophecy in Ezekiel (26:3-16) outlined several detailed fates that awaited Tyre:
-Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the city on the mainland.
-More than one nation would come against it.
-The city would be flattened like the top of a bare rock.
-The area would become a site for spreading nets.
-Stones and timbers would be thrown into the water.
-The city would not be rebuilt.
-Nearby rulers would give up their thrones.

Archaeology confirms Ezekiel. Stone tables have been found with a nearly complete text of Ezekiel dating from 600-500 B.C. (the time of Ezekiel). This verifies the existence of the prophecy before it's fulfillment.

Historical fulfillment: In 586 B.C., Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland, forcing people to the island portion of the city. In 332 B.C., Alexander the Great began a siege of the island city. In order to reach it, he scraped the stones and timbers from the mainland city into the water to form a great causeway. Due to the successful siege, many neighboring rulers surrendered to Alexander without a fight. Today the ancient mainland portion of Tyre remains a flat rock where local fishermen dry out their nets.
Click to expand...

Like you said, this doesn't address why some books were left out. It certainly doesn't address any changes or modifications that were made to the manuscript. And it is hard to believe it is sheer coincidence that all miracles (and cherry picked parts of his life) bear a striking resemblance to other deities already known at that time in the near far east. The message of Jesus is what I find compelling.....it's the miracles, divinity stuff, and entirety of the old testament is what I find bogus.

If I am going to believe a fantastic story that only has some passing relevance to history I could just as much believe the truth of Homer's Odyssey as I could the Bible. I just think it is important to take the text for what it is.
 
#199
#199
CountVolcula said:
Religion, well, its a difficult thing to discuss, intelligently. No Christian church teaches from the Bible, the way it is written. If that was true, women would not be allowed to be pastors, women would not work, they would be subordinate to man(Genesis 3:16). So the church has evolved to allow those changes. But has the church disobeyed God by doing so. Another example is the death penalty. You see churches preaching against the the Death Penalty because its against what God teaches us, but several passages in the bible quote the opposite(Genesis 9:6 and Exodus 21:23). Are they not going against the word of God. If you ask them that, then they will say, "Well we teach from the New Testament". But in doing so, you're only teaching half of Gods word. The bible , in its teachings, are strict and to the point. Most people do not want to believe that they are living "in sin", so they denounce the Bible and the word of God as false and childish fantasy. They want to believe that one can live his/her life as they please, regardless of moral and ethical behavior, and there will be no price to pay. I leave you with this.

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. [2 Timothy 4:3-4]
Click to expand...

The OT is essentially about creation, prophecy and the Jewish people.

Why, as a gentile and follower of Christ would I run my house/life as an old testament Jew?
 
#200
#200
JZVOL said:
The OT is essentially about creation, prophecy and the Jewish people.

Why, as a gentile and follower of Christ would I run my house/life as an old testament Jew?
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but it's still God's word right? There are still parts of it that even Christians believe in and teach
 
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