New Rule

#51
#51
volinbham said:
Just changed. One key way is in information processing. They are much more adept at handling multiple, simultaneous information streams. That means they have much better filters. When I started, I could get away with more lecturing - it fit the information processing mode. That is no longer the case.
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I've had a hard time with public education because of that. When a class is "here are the facts, memorize them, test in a week." I do terrible where my peers succeed. But when a class is lecture-based, with essay responses and such, I do better. That is when I'm motivated to write, but that is an issue of my own.
 
#52
#52
hatvol96 said:
I tend to put very little stock in studies done by nerdy little academicians and more in what I encounter on a daily basis. Most freshly minted college graduates I encounter lack skills I would expect from a 9th grader. Neither of my parents completed college and they are infinitely better educated than the mental midgets produced by our alleged education system today.
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Very convenient.
 
#53
#53
volinbham said:
Very convenient.
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No, very accurate. Those of us in the private sector get to deal with the "product" of our educational system everyday. If a private company failed as miserably as public education in this country, it would be bankrupt in a month.
 
#54
#54
milohimself said:
I've had a hard time with public education because of that. When a class is "here are the facts, memorize them, test in a week." I do terrible where my peers succeed. But when a class is lecture-based, with essay responses and such, I do better. That is when I'm motivated to write, but that is an issue of my own.
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The biggest challenge I have is that because such a more diverse group of students is entering college, the best way to teach them becomes varied. When the prototypical college student was more uniform, a more uniform teaching approach worked.

The bottom line still is that a student's motivation is the biggest key. My challenge is finding the right buttons to push to find that motivation.
 
#55
#55
hatvol96 said:
No, very accurate. Those of us in the private sector get to deal with the "product" of our educational system everyday. If a private company failed as miserably as public education in this country, it would be bankrupt in a month.
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I've done my time in the private sector (still do) as well. I don't doubt your reality but it is just that - your reality.
 
#56
#56
volinbham said:
The biggest challenge I have is that because such a more diverse group of students is entering college, the best way to teach them becomes varied. When the prototypical college student was more uniform, a more uniform teaching approach worked.

The bottom line still is that a student's motivation is the biggest key. My challenge is finding the right buttons to push to find that motivation.
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Everybody I know that succeeded on any level in high school was uniform in that they were good at fact processing. That's about it, but public education is geared towards that kind of learning now. I know plenty of people who graduated with honors, which there is nothing wrong with. But I do find something wrong with the fact that many of them graduated with honors, while putting barely any effort into their education, because it wasn't required of them. Plenty of those who graduated with a 3.5 or over were, as hatvol puts, mental midgets. Then you have kids like myself. I don't consider myself the best among students out there, but I fancy myself as a pretty smart kid. And I had friends like myself who graduated with a pretty low GPA. Most of just brushed it off as GPA being indicitavie of nothing.
 
#57
#57
volinbham said:
I've done my time in the private sector (still do) as well. I don't doubt your reality but it is just that - your reality.
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Interview 100 executives. I guarantee at least 80 will tell you they are unhappy with the quality of the education the employee pool comes to them possessing.
 
#58
#58
hatvol96 said:
Interview 100 executives. I guarantee at least 80 will tell you they are unhappy with the quality of the education the employee pool comes to them possessing.
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The question is, are they becoming less and less happy. Were they happy at one time but now are not?
 
#59
#59
hatvol96 said:
Interview 100 executives. I guarantee at least 80 will tell you they are unhappy with the quality of the education the employee pool comes to them possessing.
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I find it bad that one has to submit themselves to the sort of mind-numbing "education" required to get into that employee pool.
 
#60
#60
milohimself said:
Everybody I know that succeeded on any level in high school was uniform in that they were good at fact processing. That's about it, but public education is geared towards that kind of learning now. I know plenty of people who graduated with honors, which there is nothing wrong with. But I do find something wrong with the fact that many of them graduated with honors, while putting barely any effort into their education, because it wasn't required of them. Plenty of those who graduated with a 3.5 or over were, as hatvol puts, mental midgets. Then you have kids like myself. I don't consider myself the best among students out there, but I fancy myself as a pretty smart kid. And I had friends like myself who graduated with a pretty low GPA. Most of just brushed it off as GPA being indicitavie of nothing.
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GPA is not the best measure of education that's for sure. That said, I can't say that you are more or less educated than a high school grad who had the same classes 10 years ago. My guess would be that you may even have a larger (if somewhat different) knowledge base.
 
#61
#61
volinbham said:
The question is, are they becoming less and less happy. Were they happy at one time but now are not?
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The various executives I deal with on a regular basis uniformly think the talent pool deteriorates with each passing year.
 
#62
#62
hatvol96 said:
The various executives I deal with on a regular basis uniformly think the talent pool deteriorates with each passing year.
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Welcome to your world.

I talk with employers on a regular basis that recruit our students, they don't feel the same.
 
#65
#65
hatvol96 said:
That's what I do. The executives I deal with come from a cross section of industries.
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Somewhat connected to the point you've been making, that had a large part in my decision to try and go for a skill-based degree rather than some sort of professional one. Although multiple personality and skill tests I've done show strong traits in business, sales, management, etc., I have serious doubt in the preparation a degree in that sort of field would give me. Business admin, marketing, etc.
 
#66
#66
milohimself said:
Somewhat connected to the point you've been making, that had a large part in my decision to try and go for a skill-based degree rather than some sort of professional one. Although multiple personality and skill tests I've done show strong traits in business, sales, management, etc., I have serious doubt in the preparation a degree in that sort of field would give me. Business admin, marketing, etc.
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As someone that teaches business (marketing actually), I can tell you that a school like ours could definitely provide preparation for a career in the field. Many colleges and universities could.
 
#67
#67
I'll find out eventually. I'm getting a degree for automotive service in about a year here, and I'll see where it goes from there. Probably either business admin or further progression into automotive engineering.
 
#69
#69
OWB said:
From Real Time With Bill Maher.. I know I know, most of you don't like him, but he still makes some good points.

"America must stop bragging that it's the greatest country on earth and start acting like it. Now, I know — I know this is uncomfortable for the faith-over-facts crowd, but the greatness of a country can, to a large degree, be measured. Here are some numbers: Infant mortality rate, America ranks 48th in the world; overall health, 72nd; freedom of the press, 44; literacy, 55th. Do you realize there are 12-year-old kids in this country who can't spell the name of the teacher they're having sex with?

Now, America, I will admit, has done many great things: making the New World democratic comes to mind, the Marshall Plan, curing polio, beating Hitler, the deep-fried Twinkie, but what have we done for us lately? We're not the freest country. That would be Holland, where you can smoke hash in church, and Janet Jackson's nipple is on their flag.

And, sadly, we're no longer a country that can get things done, either. Not big things, like building a tunnel under Boston or running a war with competence. We had six years to fix the voting machines. Couldn't get that done. The FBI is just now getting email!

Prop 87 out here in California is about lessening our dependence on oil by using alternative fuels, and Bill Clinton comes on at the end of the ad and says, "If Brazil can do it, America can, too." Excuse me, since when did America have to buck itself up by saying we could catch up to Brazil?! We invented the airplane and the lightbulb. They invented the bikini wax, and now they're ahead?!

In most of the industrialized world, nearly everyone has health care. And hardly anyone doubts evolution. And, yes, having to live amid so many superstitious dimwits is also something that affects quality of life. It's why America isn't going to be the country that gets the inevitable patents in stem cell cures, because Jesus thinks it's too close to cloning!

Oh, and did I mention we owe China a trillion dollars? We owe everybody money. America is a debtor nation to Mexico! We're not on a bridge to the 21st century. We're on a bus to Atlantic City with a roll of quarters.

And this is why it bugs me that so many people talk like it's 1955 and we're still number one in everything. We're not. And I take no glee in saying this, because I love my country, and I wish we were. But when you're number 55 in this category and number 92 in that one, you look a little silly waving the big foam "Number One" finger.

As long as we believe being the greatest country in the world is a birthright, we'll keep coasting on the achievements of earlier generations and we'll keep losing the moral high ground. Because we may not be the biggest or the healthiest or the best educated. But we always did have one thing no other place did. We knew soccer was bulls***.

And...and we also had a little thing called the Bill of Rights. A great nation doesn't torture people or make them disappear without a trial. Bush keeps saying the terrorists hate us for our freedom. And he's working damn hard to see that pretty soon that won't be a problem."
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Good stuff, I love him!

A few months back, someone did an interview with him, and they spent 15 minutes talking about his use of hybrid cars.........:dance2: :birgits_giggle:
 
#70
#70
I believe that Volinbham and Hat are both correct, however, they are arguing two different things. Bham, you are making the case that todays students leave school with a much larger base of knowledge. I do not believe that can be disproven. Hat is arguing that the graduates that are entering the private sector do not have the skills needed to succeed. I believe that to be true also. I think our education does a great job dumping knowledge on students in this country. However, it fails in teaching the same students the critical thinking skills required to use that knowledge. The result is that graduates know more than ever, yet, have absolutely no marketable skills.
 
#73
#73
therealUT said:
However, it fails in teaching the same students the critical thinking skills required to use that knowledge. The result is that graduates know more than ever, yet, have absolutely no marketable skills.
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The original premise was that the population is becoming less educated. It may be true but I have seen no credible evidence.

I would disagree that students have "no" marketable skills. Even if their skills are less marketable than some time in the past (debatable), it is also not an indication of less education but could be a result of the current job scene requiring "more" education than it did in the past. The transition from a agriculture to manufacturing to information/knowledge-based economy requires a different set of skills.

As I stated earlier, there are plenty of trends pedagogy that I may not agree with. However, I wouldn't condemn the whole system.
 
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