News service now breaking genuine meltdown fears

#51
#51
Questions:

Don't the waste pools have to be cooled as well? Aren't they in the reactor building?
 
#52
#52
utgibbs said:
Questions:

Don't the waste pools have to be cooled as well? Aren't they in the reactor building?
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Define waste pools.

He said there is no waste pool its called the spent pool and it over primary containment. Yes it needs to be covered but least of worries. Its already partially spent. You need to worry about the stuff in the reactor. The spent fuel pool in their design is located where the explosion occurred, per his guess. They could not keep it from getting hot. This is his guess.
 
#53
#53
utgibbs said:
Questions:

Don't the waste pools have to be cooled as well? Aren't they in the reactor building?
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The spent fuel pools are in the reactor building. Depending on when the reactor was last refueled, the evaporation rate from those pools is fairly low. It shouldn't be a problem to keep up with.
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#54
#54
It is above it in the same building but not in primary containment. It is in secondary.

He said waste pool could mean alot if things but he thinks you mean spent fuel pool.
 
#55
#55
TennTradition said:
The spent fuel pools are in the reactor building. Depending on when the reactor was last refueled, the evaporation rate from those pools is fairly low. It shouldn't be a problem to keep up with.
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he said the pool is probably what blew but it is not that big of deal.
 
#56
#56
If they do not have shut down cooling he believes this is the part that blew. He said this is the best part to blow if it was going to blow. Alot less exposure.
 
#57
#57
Just talked to someone that said that the Japanese are very confident that the metal barrier in the primary containment is fully intact. Unfortunately, they have no way to confirm that the additional concrete barrier of the primary containment was not damaged by either 1) the earthquake (not too likely) or 2) the hydrogen explosion (more likely than 1). These things are built well, but that is an unknown out there.
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#58
#58
he said he has been given talking points Gibbs, does that worry you?
 
#60
#60
NEOCON said:
If they do not have shut down cooling he believes this is the part that blew. He said this is the best part to blow if it was going to blow. Alot less exposure.
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I'm not sure the spent fuel became uncovered or hot enough to oxidize the Zircaloy and create the hydrogen. Is he saying he thinks that the spent fuel is what led to the explosion? That would surprise me.

Or, is he just saying that the secondary structure is what blew and that this is the better place to have an explosion? I'm on the same page with that.

The secondary containment did have less radioactivity, but without it in place, the vapors that are vented are now unfiltered.

The top of the secondary containment structure is just sheet metal (in the refueling bay). While this may seem a bit odd, this gives a defined point of failure and prevents excessive pressure from building in the secondary containment during a potential explosion that could lead to a larger probability of primary containment damage from the blast.
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#61
#61
He's off the phone now. He said when we were talking that the Hydrogen in the building caused the rods to blow as they did not have the right stuff to cool them down with what was happening.

This is his opinion though as he is only basing this off what would happen in his plant.
 
#62
#62
I read to him what you wrote.

He says what you said is pretty much correct.
 
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#63
#63
NEOCON said:
He's off the phone now. He said when we were talking that the Hydrogen in the building caused the rods to blow as they did not have the right stuff to cool them down with what was happening.

This is his opinion though as he is only basing this off what would happen in his plant.
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Hmmm...something doesn't seem right about that. He clearly knows his plant, but I think I must be misunderstanding what he was saying.
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#66
#66
he asked me to ask you where you feel the hydrogen is coming from?

he said without him being there he can only guess.

he said it would be very hard too get hot enough but he said a simple fuel decay still produces hydrogen which could have caused it to blow over a period of time. It would not gotten hot enough to melt the Zirconium but could cause it to blow.
 
#67
#67
He says that when the suppression pool is 100 F you are suppose to start all residual heat removal systems in suppression pool cooling. Hydrogen he says comes into play when you can't do that. If this system was knocked offline the hydrogen would begin to build up.
 
#68
#68
He is the guy who writes all procedures for the Hatch plant. he is reading the manual on what should have been done right now and I don't have a freaking clue what the hell he is saying.
 
#69
#69
NEOCON said:
he asked me to ask you where you feel the hydrogen is coming from?

he said without him being there he can only guess.

he said it would be very hard too get hot enough but he said a simple fuel decay still produces hydrogen which could have caused it to blow over a period of time. It would not gotten hot enough to melt the Zirconium but could cause it to blow.
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Normal fuel decay does produce hydrogen through alpha particle decay, but the secondary containment is ventilated and well-designed to dilute that hydrogen such that it would never reach explosive limits. The dominant form if decay is not alpha in spent fuel ( I THINK), so I don't think the spent fuel could produce hydrogen fast enough for UT to accumulate.

Instead, I think that the hydrogen that accumulated in the secondary containment came from venting the reactor vessel. When water levels dropped, the temperature increased as rods became partially exposed. This caused an increased pressure in the reactor vessel as well as reaction of the water with the Zircaloy to make hydrogen. They vented the reactor vessel to prevent over-pressurization. This led to the release of steam, hydrogen, and radioactive species (e.g, cesium). The building withstood it for awhile, but as hydrogen built up, it finally reached explosive limits and lit off.

That is what I think happened. This would be consistent with the detection of cesium at the plant boundary, which is an indication that the core became hot enough to melt the fuel rods (not necessarily the fuel pellets), exposing the cesium that collects between the pellets to the reactor water. This melt would occur at temperatures higher than those required for the Zircaloy reaction to make hydrogen, IIRC.
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#70
#70
He is basing all of this one what they are saying. He is basing all of this on primary containment not being breached. he said if it has not it is logical that it can from the spent fuel system. If primary containment has been broken and they are not being honest the cause could be totally different. I'm sorry. His plant and that plant are built by GE not westinghouse.
 
#71
#71
NEOCON said:
He says that when the suppression pool is 100 F you are suppose to start all residual heat removal systems in suppression pool cooling. Hydrogen he says comes into play when you can't do that. If this system was knocked offline the hydrogen would begin to build up.
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Interesting. That seems to be a lot lower temp than I would expect to cause hydrogen production.
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#72
#72
TennTradition said:
Normal fuel decay does produce hydrogen through alpha particle decay, but the secondary containment is ventilated and well-designed to dilute that hydrogen such that it would never reach explosive limits. The dominant form if decay is not alpha in spent fuel ( I THINK), so I don't think the spent fuel could produce hydrogen fast enough for UT to accumulate.

Instead, I think that the hydrogen that accumulated in the secondary containment came from venting the reactor vessel. When water levels dropped, the temperature increased as rods became partially exposed. This caused an increased pressure in the reactor vessel as well as reaction of the water with the Zircaloy to make hydrogen. They vented the reactor vessel to prevent over-pressurization. This led to the release of steam, hydrogen, and radioactive species (e.g, cesium). The building withstood it for awhile, but as hydrogen built up, it finally reached explosive limits and lit off.

That is what I think happened. This would be consistent with the detection of cesium at the plant boundary, which is an indication that the core became hot enough to melt the fuel rods (not necessarily the fuel pellets), exposing the cesium that collects between the pellets to the reactor water. This melt would occur at temperatures higher than those required for the Zircaloy reaction to make hydrogen, IIRC.
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He says that if they had operating power they had stand by gas treatment. he says if they vented so much the stand by treatment could not keep up it is possible. otherwise it should not be possible.
 
#73
#73
he said they would not have even vented if stand by was not available.

He says you are not wrong though and your assumption is logical.
 
#74
#74
NEOCON said:
He is basing all of this one what they are saying. He is basing all of this on primary containment not being breached. he said if it has not it is logical that it can from the spent fuel system. If primary containment has been broken and they are not being honest the cause could be totally different. I'm sorry. His plant and that plant are built by GE not westinghouse.
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Primary containment doesn't have to be breached to get material from the reactor vessel to the secondary containment, if I understand correctly. When they emergency vent, it goes into secondary containment.
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#75
#75
He says they are lying about primary being broken if they did actually vent though.
 
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