News service now breaking genuine meltdown fears

#76
#76
he said they would not have even vented if stand by was not available.

He says you are not wrong though and your assumption is logical.

If it comes down to over-pressurizing the reactor vessel or venting despite having no gas treatment, I bet they vent.

Ask him what the gas treatment is. How do they remove the hydrogen? I would think that it would just be filters...but it must be something else if they remove the hydrogen.
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#77
#77
Primary containment doesn't have to be breached to get material from the reactor vessel to the secondary containment, if I understand correctly. When they emergency vent, it goes into secondary containment.
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He says the whole point is to prevent that from happening. he says what they are saying has happened and what appears to have happened don't mix.
 
#79
#79
He says the whole point is to prevent that from happening. he says what they are saying has happened and what appears to have happened don't mix.

Hmm...venting into primary containment doesn't make total sense to me in this scenario. If you just want to make a quick burp, sure. But we are talking about a lot if volume here. If they sent that to primary containment, I would think they could risk over-pressurizing it. FWIW, a properly functioning primary containment system if this type still has a small leak rate. I don't think that is the source, though, because it us too slow.
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#80
#80
They are definitely venting. Why does he say that?
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I see. He is saying that if they are venting to secondary, that means primary is down? I'm not sure that is true for this containment system, but I'll see if I can ask around.
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#81
#81
If it comes down to over-pressurizing the reactor vessel or venting despite having no gas treatment, I bet they vent.

Ask him what the gas treatment is. How do they remove the hydrogen? I would think that it would just be filters...but it must be something else if they remove the hydrogen.
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You realize I have no clue what you guys are talking about right?

Anyways, he says the gas treatment is a series of different filters like carbon, hepa, pre filter, etc. (To me that doesn't sound very impressive)

He says the hydrogen is sucked through the filter and up through the stack to a high point because the hydrogen by itself is not a radiactive gas.

he says you have a point on what you said earlier.

He says we might never know what actually happened.
 
#82
#82
Is there an increasing risk of a hydrogen explosion in the reactor vessel? The interaction of the zirconium cladding and the cooling water is producing the hydrogen, right? Is the zirconium melt relatively rapid or will it create more hydrogen as it melts?
 
#83
#83
They are definitely venting. Why does he say that?
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he says the procudures do not match what they are publicly saying. He does not disagree with what you said though. He says he doesn't know what they were experiencing but even at 3 mile island they did not vent it went out the stack. But then again they weren't hit by a tsunami.
 
#84
#84
He said all he knows for sure is that the stand by gas treatment had to go offline for it to end up blowing.

How or why it went offline he can only guess.
 
#86
#86
sounds like they're having trouble w/ venting the gases on No. 2 reactor ..

Emergency cooling effort failing at Japanese reactor, deepening crisis - The Times of India
The plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power, said late Monday that repeated efforts to inject seawater into the reactor had failed, causing water levels inside the reactor's containment vessel to fall and exposing its fuel rods. After what at first appeared to be a successful bid to refill the vessel, water levels again dwindled, this time to critical levels, exposing the rods almost completely, company executives said. ( Read: Japan's nuclear crisis worsens, tsunami puts economy at risk )

Workers were having difficulty injecting seawater into the reactor because its vents — necessary to release pressure in the containment vessel by allowing radioactive steam to escape — had stopped working properly, they said.

The more time that passes with fuel rods uncovered by water and the pressure inside the containment vessel unvented, the greater the risk that the containment vessel will crack or explode, creating a potentially catastrophic release of radioactive material into the atmosphere — an accident that would be by far the worst to confront the nuclear power industry since the explosion of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant 25 years ago.
 
#87
#87
Is there an increasing risk of a hydrogen explosion in the reactor vessel? The interaction of the zirconium cladding and the cooling water is producing the hydrogen, right? Is the zirconium melt relatively rapid or will it create more hydrogen as it melts?

Probably not. You have to have the right concentration of hydrogen, not too little but not too much. More importantly, you have to have a good amount of oxygen. There is little oxygen in the reactor.

The secondary containment has oxygen. The hydrogen would start out small, but build over time, eventually building up past the lower explosive limit.
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#89
#89
#91
#91
Tenn you with the TVA?

Ever worked with Southern co?

No, I'm not with TVA. I have contacts in the NRC and DOE office of nuclear. I also have several contacts at the union of concerned scientists and the nuclear energy institute. That's who Ive been talking to. I don't have any plant contacts, actually. If your friend wants to talk, I would be happy to have one :)
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#93
#93
Yeah, this just killed nuclear tech here.

The said thing is how well they've handled this situation at the plant so far is being overlooked.
 
#96
#96
There has been a new explosion, but not as violent as the previous two. Apparently they were not able to get the valve reopened for long and the reactor's core has continued to be exposed.

Now - this is speculation at this point - but I think the latest explosion may have been a failure of the reactor vessel due to weakening caused by contact with the hot fuel that had been exposed by loss of cooling and had fallen out of the melted rods.

Regardless of what the source of the explosion was, there seems to be a lot if buzz from the operating company that the containment structure may have been damaged. Whatever happened appears to have happened inside the primary containment, unlike the explosions at 1 and 3, which occurred outside the primary containment.

Hopefully those concerns will lessen as we learn more, but the initial word is troubling.
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#97
#97
He did said Westinghouse built that plant and was about to open two more here and this just stopped that. he said it is not economical to build a plant able to handle an 8.9 earthquake and that all the feds have to do now is say we want "safe" nuclear energy and place this as a pre-req and it will stop all future plants dead in their tracks.

shouldn't take the idiot in office now long to try and pass this
 
#98
#98
he says the procudures do not match what they are publicly saying. He does not disagree with what you said though. He says he doesn't know what they were experiencing but even at 3 mile island they did not vent it went out the stack. But then again they weren't hit by a tsunami.

OK, I think that I may have sorted some of this out. If you want, run this by your friend and s if it makes sense.

In a loss of coolant situation, the reactor vessel is either receiving no recirculating coolant or too little. In this case, the water level in the reactor vessel begins to drop. In the event that this occurs, an emergency procedure can be carried out where the reactor vessel is vented to the primary containment. Steam that has been in contact with the reactor core then flows into the primary containment.

The primary containment is comprised of two components: the dry well and the wet well. The wet well is a torus-shaped reservoir that sits under the reactor vessel. The reservoir is filled with a very large mass of water. In the event of an emergency, the reactor vessel is vented through pipes than run down into the wet well. Thus, the reactor's gas is vented through this water, where it then percolates up, exchanging heat with the torus' water reservoir. This is probably what your friend was referring to - in the vent of an emergency with insufficient coolant, they would vent to the primary containment.

The large mass of water in the wet well of the primary containment can condense a lot of steam before its temperature climbs to high temperatures. This buys the reactor operators time to establish backup cooling. However, if this doesn't happen or if the coolant supply rate is insufficient, then reactor coolant continues to flash into the dry well, where it is fed to the wet well through standpipes, continuing to heat the water in the wet well. Eventually, this will get so hot that it will begin to boil, pressurizing the primary containment structure.

In the original Mark I design, this was it. If the accident continued, then there was a roughly 90% chance that the primary containment structure would over-pressure and fail.

Some years ago, this was recognized, and Harold Denton (director of the NRC office of nuclear regulation at the time) campaigned for modifications to the Mark I design. The primary modification was the addition of an emergency vent system that would allow the primary containment vessel, if dangerously over-pressured, to be vented to the secondary containment housing. Here, it can be filtered to remove any radioactivity and vented to the atmosphere. There is even (at least usually) a hydrogen removal device that is basically a hot electrical filament that will ignite any hydrogen in the feed and convert it to water. However, if electrical power is spotty due to the accident, this might not work. It was likely at this point that hydrogen began to build in the secondary containment structure...this ultimately led to the explosion.

All of this isn't so bad as long as the water level in the reactor continues to cover the fuel rods. However, when the rods are uncovered, they hat and melt (not a meltdown) and release some radioactive material that builds up between the fuel pellets that are encased in the (now melted) fuel rods. This material, such as cesium, can then be vented in the primary containment, and ultimately the secondary containment, if pressures get too high. This is what happened in Japan in reactors 1 and 3.

If you have the time, see if this makes sense to him....

What has happened in reactor 2 could be worse. This part is speculation on my part at the moment, but what may have happened is that the pressure could not be relieved and thus the protective measure that Denton had pushed for was no longer operable. If this happened, then it is possible that the pressure built to a point that either the reactor vessel or primary containment failed due to over-pressure. Hopefully as more information comes out, my reasoning will prove to be incorrect on this last point.
 
#99
#99
The prime minister has apparently confirmed that there is a fire near the roof of reactor 4. I've read that it is the spent fuel pool. This is HIGHLY suspect at this point, and I'm not sure I trust the source, but considering its location I can see how the person would conclude this. It's an online source...I'm out of contact at the moment with folks who would know....a lot of things are happening right now.

Shiz may have just gone down at reactor 2...we'll know soon enough, I guess.
 
The big problem here is that if whatever has happened at reactor 2 leads to very high radioactivity levels, then the teams working on preventing a melt down or containment failure at reactors 1 and 3 will be placed in a very precarious situation. If reactor 2 continues to get worse (or maybe it is already that bad), then I'm afraid that the workers at 1 and 3 will be working to protect their country under the very real threat of the loss of their own lives. I'm just wondering now what may happen if 2 gets very, very bad, will they be able to save 1 and 3? That's a scary thought.
 

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