Neyland I (Formerly known as Gruden Thread)

[Charlie Kelly]

Kobe and MJ both have this overinflated sense of their athletecism.

Both were extremely athletic. MJ a freak, and Kobe very close to being the same freak. There have been so many dudes as, or more freakish than them who neve did anything. Or even those who found success, but never quite that high.

Vince was freak with atheltecism superior to both, and was even a better 3 pt shooter than Kobe.

Still nowhere near either. And I'm just talking about offense

Agree with you here. They were both extremely athletic but there have been loads of players who were more freakish than they were. Vince Carter is a solid example. But you’re right, nowhere near the complete players that Kobe and MJ were.

Kobe and MJ were just workaholics who praticed every little detail until their feet bled. They were both very technically sound and they understood the game better than 99 percent of their peers. And they were athletic enough to put those skills, and all that hard work, to good use and turn themselves into legends. But they weren’t freaks of nature like some players.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

I'll take MJ's circus sideshow act layups over Kobe's offbalanced, 18 foot chucks

Kobe emulated MJ. Offensively, he had every move or shot than MJ did. He had a few of those circus layups himself. And he was even a better outside shooter. But MJ didn’t insist on throwing up all those bad shots like Kobe did.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Its down to how they want to be listed. Garnett always insisted he be billed as 6'11. He said it was cuz he didnt want to be pegged by coaches as a center, but how exactly do you hide that when you show up for training?

Yeah, it doesn’t make sense. People are going to notice if you aren’t your listed height. Not that it matters. If you can play, you can play. Magic wasn’t the traditional point guard height and yet he might be the best point guard of all time. I’m not sure why they care enough to lie.

 

[apevol]

Agree with you here. They were both extremely athletic but there have been loads of player who were more freakish than they were. Vince Carter is a solid example. But you’re right, nowhere near the complete players that Kobe and MJ were.

Kobe and MJ were just workaholics who praticed every little detail until their feet bled. They were both very technically sound and they understood the game better than 99 percent of their peers. And they were athletic enough to put those skills, and all that hard work, to good use and turn themselves into legends. But they weren’t freaks of nature like some players.

I find it interesting how everyone went ape**** over Larry Bird being so good with such low athletecism. Turns out, his measurables were esentially identical to Magick's.

He wasn't this weird einsten able to overcome these horrible limitations athletically.

He and Magic both were essentially league average

 

[Charlie Kelly]

I find it interesting how everyone went ape**** over Larry Bird being so good with such low athletecism. Turns out, his measurables were esentially identical to Magick's.

He wasn't this weird einsten able to overcome these horrible limitations athletically.

He and Magic both were essentially league average

Yup. Bird is a perfect example of that. Stockton too.

There are plenty of guys in today’s league who are freakishly athletic yet only average players. Iguodala and DeAndre Jordan come to mind.

 

[apevol]

Yeah, it doesn’t make sense. People are going to notice if you aren’t your listed height. Not that it matters. If you can play, you can play. Magic wasn’t the traditional point guard height and yet he might be the best point guard of all time. I’m not sure why they care enough to lie.

Difference between Mj and Kobe, as far as scoring, is actually pretty clear.

Jordan didn't give a **** about threes, and didnt spend much time worrying about them. They were both incredible from midrange. But Mike hit shots inside of 10 feet like a post player. Total outlier, in basketball history. Dude couldve played half a season at PF if he wanted. Nobody else has done that.

 

[apevol]

Yup. Bird is a perfect example of that. Stockton too.

There are plenty of guys in today’s league who are freakishly athletic yet only average players. Iguodala and DeAndre Jordan come to mind.

Iggy had his day as an ALMOST superstar. Philadelphia hated him, because he was billed as the 2nd AI

He's done much better as a role player. Won fmvp? Thats nuts.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Difference between Mj and Kobe, as far as scoring, is actually pretty clear.

Jordan didn't give a **** about threes, and didnt spend much time worrying about them. They were both incredible from midrange. But Mike hit shots inside of 10 feet like a post player. Total outlier, in basketball history. Dude couldve played half a season at PF if he wanted. Nobody else has done that.

Nobody gave a **** about threes in that era. Just the way it was back then.

And Kobe was an extremely underrated post player. Especially on the back half of his career. The Gasol years come to mind.

MJ was a better ball handler and defender. And if I’ve stated it once, I’ve stated it a thousand times: Kobe had some of the worst shot selection I’ve ever seen.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Iggy had his day as an ALMOST superstar. Philadelphia hated him, because he was billed as the 2nd AI

He's done much better as a role player. Won fmvp? Thats nuts.

Yeah he came close in Philly. But if we’re being honest, he’s not a good enough shooter to carry an entire team. Or be the face of a franchise.

And he deserved that finals MVP. The work he did on LeBron in that series was impressive.

 

[apevol]

Nobody gave a **** about threes in that era. Just the way it was back then.

And Kobe was an extremely underrated post player. Especially on the back half of his career. The Gasol years come to mind.

MJ was a better ball handler and defender. And if I’ve stated it once, I’ve stated it a thousand times: Kobe had some of the worst shot selection I’ve ever seen.

I'd actually say Kobe had the better handle. Jordan just adopted the triangle better, and maximized the triple threat.

Had a better first step than Kobe.

And, please, watch some footage of MJ in the post. There are actually shot charts floating around showing both MJ's and Kobe's effectiveness down low. Its not even close, and theres never been another wing, let alone shooting guard remotely close to as effective.

 

[apevol]

Yeah he came close in Philly. But if we’re being honest, he’s not a good enough shooter to carry an entire team. Or be the face of a franchise.

And he deserved that finals MVP. The work he did on LeBron in that series was impressive.

Whoever guards James the most in a finals series seems to always win fmvp now.

 

[apevol]

Mike was also noticeably better at long twos than Kobe, and imo, thats a function of Mike being more of a threat in that position. Better passer in that position, and better at forcing his way 2 or 3 feet closer. Actual shooting, Id take Kobe, but he always had someone draped all over him from there.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

I'd actually say Kobe had the better handle. Jordan just adopted the triangle better, and maximized the triple threat.

Had a better first step than Kobe.

And, please, watch some footage of MJ in the post. There are actually shot charts floating around showing both MJ's and Kobe's effectiveness down low. Its not even close, and theres never been another wing, let alone shooting guard remotely close to as effective.

I didn’t say Kobe was better. I just said he was good. But he didn’t adopt a true post game until ‘07 or so. But yes, Jordan was more skilled than most bigs down low. Really underrated part of his game. People seem to only remember the dunks and midrange.

Michael definitely had a better first step. They both had phenomenal handles. But I’ve just watched Kobe turn it over too many times to say he was better.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Whoever guards James the most in a finals series seems to always win fmvp now.

The East has been laughable for years now. That’s why his teams always make the finals and then proceed to lose (most years). LeBron is very fortunate to have 3 rings. He lucked into 2 of those with just absolutely embarrassing, historic collapses by the opposing teams.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Mike was also noticeably better at long twos than Kobe, and imo, thats a function of Mike being more of a threat in that position. Better passer in that position, and better at forcing his way 2 or 3 feet closer. Actual shooting, Id take Kobe, but he always had someone draped all over him from there.

Yeah Kobe was the better shooter. They both knew how to get to their spot though. Mike was probably a better passer. Although Kobe was a really great passer himself. He had a couple games where he flirted with 20 assists. Problem was, he never wanted to pass. He could have had a bunch of triple doubles if he was more unselfish.

 

[apevol]

I didn’t say Kobe was better. I just said he was good. But he didn’t adopt a true post game until ‘07 or so. But yes, Jordan was more skilled than most bigs down low. Really underrated part of his game. People seem to only remember the dunks and midrange.

Michael definitely had a better first step. They both had phenomenal handles. But I’ve just watched Kobe turn it over too many times to say he was better.

Kobe turned it over more, because he lacked the same recognition. For as smart a player he was, he juet could NOT see a dead end for some reason.

Off the trible, he was every bit as good, except in the playoffs.

If you ever noticed, though, Jordan was always very conservative about his game winners.

Partially a testament to his dominance that he cared less about walk off shots than he did defense, but I think he wanted to be able to save time for a tip in, or an inbounds restart.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Kobe turned it over more, because he lacked the same recognition. For as smart a player he was, he juet could NOT see a dead end for some reason.

Off the trible, he was every bit as good, except in the playoffs.

If you ever noticed, though, Jordan was always very conservative about his game winners.

Partially a testament to his dominance that he cared less about walk off shots than he did defense, but I think he wanted to be able to save time for a tip in, or an inbounds restart.

I have noticed that about Mike. But that goes back to recognition. Kobe was too stubborn for his own good. He would consistently refuse to make the smart play and instead try and force it. Especially in end of game situations. It was maddening. His poor percentage with game winners is almost solely due to his tendency to throw up off balance shots over double or triple teams. And there was almost always a better option.

Kobe was great off the dribble. His pull up was lights out. But I always thought he carried the ball too high for my own preference. I don’t like when players dribble above their waist. It’s careless.

 

[apevol]

The East has been laughable for years now. That’s why his teams always make the finals and then proceed to lose (most years). LeBron is very fortunate to have 3 rings. He lucked into 2 of those with just absolutely embarrassing, historic collapses by the opposing teams.

I think of Lebron as being a better player than Kobe. But not because I buy into this 'bron is so unselfish and kobe is so selfish' trap.

I just think he can have more effect on a game than Kobe, because hes able to play 1-4 much better, and with higher effeciency. He can actually be a rim protector, and Kobe couldn't. He's a better rebounder. And better passer (Do not think hes as great as a distrubtor as people think, though) And he really can score when he wants to.

Think I don't like about Lebron is that he's a ball dominant forward, pretending to be a point forward. He gets a **** load of assists by way of grinding the shot clock down,and th giving it to an outside shooter. He spends so much time with the ball trying to map out the possession, that he forgets hes a wing, and ahould be scoring

 

[apevol]

I have noticed that about Mike. But that goes back to recognition. Kobe was too stubborn for his own good. He would consistently refuse to make the smart play and instead try and force it. Especially in end of game situations. It was maddening. His poor percentage with game winners is almost solely due to his tendency to throw up off balance shots over double or triple teams. And there was almost always a better option.

Kobe was great off the dribble. His pull up was lights out. But I always thought he carried the ball too high for my own preference. I don’t like when players dribble above their waist. It’s careless.

You gotta wonder why Kobe was always taking off balance desperation shots, while someone like Bird was getting exactly where he wanted, and takong the shot before anybody realized the ball was even on play, right?

 

[Charlie Kelly]

I think of Lebron as being a better player than Kobe. But not because I buy into this 'bron is so unselfish and kobe is so selfish' trap.

I just think he can have more effect on a game than Kobe, because hes able to play 1-4 much better, and with higher effeciency. He can actually be a rim protector, and Kobe couldn't. He's a better rebounder. And better passer (Do not think hes as great as a distrubtor as people think, though) And he really can score when he wants to.

Think I don't like about Lebron is that he's a ball dominant forward, pretending to be a point forward. He gets a **** load of assists by way of grinding the shot clock down,and th giving it to an outside shooter. He spends so much time with the ball trying to map out the possession, that he forgets hes a wing, and ahould be scoring

It’s a fair debate but I have Kobe as slightly better. LeBron isn’t an elite shooter. Average to above average when he’s open. And he’s flat out average or worse with a hand in his face. That’s my biggest problem with him. Look what the Spurs did to him in the finals. Pop just packed the paint and forced him to shoot to beat them. He was inconsistent to say the least.

He is overrated as a passer but still elite. And he is definitely a better rebounder than Kobe. And much more versatile in changing positions. But I think Kobe is the better defender. LeBron gambles to much on steals for my taste. And he’ll mail it in for a whole quarter or two to save stamina. Also, I still haven’t forgotten how passive he was early in his career. The finals against Dallas was embarrassing. Glad he finally got it together though.

I will say LeBron is an absolute freak of nature athletically. He might be the most athletically gifted player of all time. He’s one of the best ever on the break. And is great at getting to the rim. But he benefits from playing in this era. He’s never really had to deal with handchecking and hard fouls. Put him in the ‘80’s or ‘90’s and I’d be curious to see if he still would attack the rim with the same fearlessness. Also, he needs to be more efficient at the line for how often he gets fouled.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

You gotta wonder why Kobe was always taking off balance desperation shots, while someone like Bird was getting exactly where he wanted, and takong the shot before anybody realized the ball was even on play, right?

I understand what you’re getting at. But Kobe got to his spots most times early in his career. The problem was that by ‘05 or ‘06, everyone in the league knew exactly who was going to take that shot. And coaches were confident enough at that point to gamble and throw multiple guys at him banking on their assumption that he wouldn’t pass. And, as infuriating as it was, he would still force it most nights after being double or triple teamed. For as smart as he was, he still let his arrogance get the best of him too often.

Larry was actually willing to make the right play. He never got bombarded with multiple defenders in those situations because coaches knew he would make the right play and pass out of it.

 

[apevol]

It’s a fair debate but I have Kobe as slightly better. LeBron isn’t an elite shooter. Average to above average when he’s open. And he’s flat out average or worse with a hand in his face. That’s my biggest problem with him. Look what the Spurs did to him in the finals. Pop just packed the paint and forced him to shoot to beat them. He was inconsistent to say the least.

He is overrated as a passer but still elite. And he is definitely a better rebounder than Kobe. And much more versatile in changing positions. But I think Kobe is the better defender. LeBron gambles to much on steals for my taste. And he’ll mail it in for a whole quarter or two to save stamina. Also, I still haven’t forgotten how passive he was early in his career. The finals against Dallas was embarrassing. Glad he finally got it together though.

I will say LeBron is an absolute freak of nature athletically. He might be the most athletically gifted player of all time. He’s one of the best ever on the break. And is great at getting to the rim. But he benefits from playing in this era. He’s never really had to deal with handchecking and hard fouls. Put him in the ‘80’s or ‘90’s and I’d be curious to see if he still would attack the rim with the same fearlessness. Also, he needs to be more efficient at the line for how often he gets fouled.

Kobe got really lazy on D too. Nothing as bad as James did last year against Durant, though. But he did mail it in for a few seasons and still got voted to the defensive team.


James seems to be surging again, though, so we'll see what he does.

Btw, hes got a significantly better fg% for game winners than Kobe does.

 

[apevol]

I understand what you’re getting at. But Kobe got to his spots most times early in his career. The problem was that by ‘05 or ‘06, everyone in the league knew exactly who was going to take that shot. And coaches were confident enough at that point to gamble and throw multiple guys at him banking on their assumption that he wouldn’t pass. And, as infuriating as it was, he would still force it most nights after being double or triple teamed. For as smart as he was, he still let his arrogance get the best of him too often.

Larry was actually willing to make the right play. He never got bombarded with multiple defenders in those situations because coaches knew he would make the right play and pass out of it.

Larry was perfectly willing to make the right play for 47 minutes, and 40 or 50 some odd seconds. When it came down to the end, he was the biggest ballhog thats ever played, and somehow he made the shot at an unusually high rate.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Kobe got really lazy on D too. Nothing as bad as James did last year against Durant, though. But he did mail it in for a few seasons and still got voted to the defensive team.


James seems to be surging again, though, so we'll see what he does.

Btw, hes got a significantly better fg% for game winners than Kobe does.

As he got older, Kobe got lazier I think more out of sense of entitlement. But yeah, nothing like LeBron. LeBron will mail it in on multiple possessions in a row in games that actually matter. Kobe always played hard in the playoffs. Last years finals was a bad look for LeBron. But I also think he realized at some point during that series they were out of their depth. They were completely and totally outclassed and he knew it. The Warriors were on a totally different level. But that goes back to the parity in the respective conferences. There were probably 2 or 3 other teams in the West last year that could’ve beaten Cleveland in the finals. I cannot overstate just how bad the East has been the last 6 or 7 years. It’s unmentionably pathetic. I wonder if LeBron would still be ringless if he’d played his entire career in the West. Maybe.

And that’s because LeBron only takes the last shot if it’s the right play. Kobe forced it too often, especially later in his career, and took ill advised, impossible shots. I feel like we’ve been over that ad nauseam.

LeBron has been on a tear the last 5 years or so. It’s fun to watch. But he’s still behind Kobe for me. Kobe is just the more complete player to me. But it’s really close.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Larry was perfectly willing to make the right play for 47 minutes, and 40 or 50 some odd seconds. When it came down to the end, he was the biggest ballhog thats ever played, and somehow he made the shot at an unusually high rate.

Shot selection probably had something to do with it. But yes, it is impressive how often they went in.