Neyland I (Formerly known as Gruden Thread)

[Charlie Kelly]

Can't think of one reason why?

Better rebounder. Equal on defense probably. But other than that it isn’t even close.

You must be partial to his piercings and tattoos. That entire argument is just eminating with scores of asininity.

But hey, you’re free to believe whatever you wish. Doesn’t make you right though.

 

[apevol]

Better rebounder. Equal on defense probably. But other than that it isn’t even close.

You must be partial to his piercings and tattoos. That entire argument is just eminating with scores of asininity.

But hey, you’re free to believe whatever you wish. Doesn’t make you right though.

Not even close to even on D.

Rodman could frustrate point guards, and was even able to hold Orlando Shaq scoreless for an entire 2nd half.

Pair that with not just being a being a better rebounder, but by a wide margin being the best rebounder in the modern era, and thats what you got with Rodman.

Dude was fast and athletic as has ever been for post players, and he had stamina like noone we've seen since the 70s.

Didn't score much at all. Didn't wanna score. One of the most useful players to ever play in the NBA. Comprehensively unselfish, and put as much, or more passion and effort into every minute he played than anyone else ever has.

 

[Weezer]

Better rebounder. Equal on defense probably. But other than that it isn’t even close.

You must be partial to his piercings and tattoos. That entire argument is just eminating with scores of asininity.

But hey, you’re free to believe whatever you wish. Doesn’t make you right though.

I agree with Ape, at least to a degree. As you've pointed out, Kobe was great one-on-one, but basketball is a team sport. Rodman was a better all-around basketball player because he wasn't afraid to do the dirty work.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Not even close to even on D.

Rodman could frustrate point guards, and was even able to hold Orlando Shaq scoreless for an entire 2nd half.

Pair that with not just being a being a better rebounder, but by a wide margin being the best rebounder in the modern era, and thats what you got with Rodman.

Dude was fast and athletic as has ever been for post players, and he had stamina like noone we've seen since the 70s.

Didn't score much at all. Didn't wanna score. One of the most useful players to ever play in the NBA. Comprehensively unselfish, and put as much, or more passion and effort into every minute he played than anyone else ever has.

He was a great rebounder. One of the best. Hard to argue there. But I’ll disagree with the defense statement. Kobe was an elite defender for the majority of his career and could hold his own on the block. I think they’re pretty even in that regard. Kobe also has him in spades in terms of longevity.

I just value scoring more. Personal preference.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

I agree with Ape, at least to a degree. As you've pointed out, Kobe was great one-on-one, but basketball is a team sport. Rodman was a better all-around basketball player because he wasn't afraid to do the dirty work.

In terms of all around players, Kobe is one of the most complete players to ever lace them up. He was elite in nearly every aspect of the game. Kobe just didn’t play well with others sometimes. Which hurt his teams to a degree. Mainly when he had off nights. When he was on, he could win entire games by himself.

Rodman was elite in two categories (defense and rebounding). He was also very athletic. But a below average ball handler and shooter. Decent passer. Average basketball IQ. He could definitely help any team win. But he couldn’t do it by himself like Kobe or MJ could.

 

[apevol]

He was a great rebounder. One of the best. Hard to argue there. But I’ll disagree with the defense statement. Kobe was an elite defender for the majority of his career and could hold his own on the block. I think they’re pretty even in that regard. Kobe also has him in spades in terms of longevity.

I just value scoring more. Personal preference.

Kobe could guard wings nearly as good as anyone who has played.

Rodman could do the same, but bang inside like he was a much bigger player.

Never gambled for steals, never gambled for blocks. And he could establish position on anyone the league had to offer.

Kobe never came close to that as a defender. He had several seasons as an elite perimeter defender, and thats it.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Kobe could guard wings nearly as good as anyone who has played.

Rodman could do the same, but bang inside like he was a much bigger player.

Never gambled for steals, never gambled for blocks. And he could establish position on anyone the league had to offer.

Kobe never came close to that as a defender. He had several seasons as an elite perimeter defender, and thats it.

Kobe had about a dozen seasons as an elite defender. And Rodman played the 3 or 4 most of his career. So naturally he’s going to play inside more. Kobe was strictly a 2 guard.

I think they’re about even on defense. They just played different positions and were asked to do different things. But they were both elite in regards to defense.

 

[Weezer]

I just never saw Kobe as a "team" player. Maybe I'm biased? Who knows?

 

[Charlie Kelly]

I just never saw Kobe as a "team" player. Maybe I'm biased? Who knows?

Hey, we all have our bias. Nothing wrong with that. But yeah, he didn’t trust many of the people he played with. And it got him into trouble sometimes. He held his teammates to insanely high standards.

 

[apevol]

Kobe had about a dozen seasons as an elite defender. And Rodman played the 3 or 4 most of his career. So naturally he’s going to play inside more. Kobe was strictly a 2 guard.

I think they’re about even on defense. They just played different positions and were asked to do different things. But they were both elite in regards to defense.

Rodman was as good, or better than Kobe at guarding wings. But he was also ridiculous at guarding big men in the post, for his size. There's no comparison. He was a better 1 on 1 defender in any given situation, and significantly more versaltile.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Rodman was as good, or better than Kobe at guarding wings. But he was also ridiculous at guarding big men in the post, for his size. There's no comparison. He was a better 1 on 1 defender in any given situation, and significantly more versaltile.

But we are comparing them?

I’ll give you more versatile. But Rodman had more size. You can’t punish people for how big or little they are. Kobe was elite at what he was asked to do. He also carried a much heavier offensive burden than Rodman. Rodman wasn’t asked to do anything aside from play defense and rebound. Kobe was asked to do nearly everything.

 

[apevol]

I just never saw Kobe as a "team" player. Maybe I'm biased? Who knows?

Kobe was really really really really really good.

His biggest weakness was his biggest strength.

He wasnt as good as a very few of the greatest pure scorers in the history of the league, but he was very close. And he was willing to accept the blame when he turned 1/8 of his teams possessions into ISO **** fests. Sometimes the Lakers were so bad that the only way to win was for him to go nuts. And he played that iso ball as well as anyone not named Jordan.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Kobe was really really really really really good.

His biggest weakness was his biggest strength.

He wasnt as good as a very few of the greatest pure scorers in the history of the league, but he was very close. And he was willing to accept the blame when he turned 1/8 of his teams possessions into ISO **** fests. Sometimes the Lakers were so bad that the only way to win was for him to go nuts. And he played that iso ball as well as anyone not named Jordan.

I know it’s blasphemy, but I see Kobe and MJ as even in terms of one-on-one players. I think they’re the two best ever at that. If it were possible, I’d pay a ton of money to watch them play one-one-one in their prime.

But MJ was a much better 5 on 5 player.

 

[apevol]

But we are comparing them?

I’ll give you more versatile. But Rodman had more size. You can’t punish people for how big or little they are. Kobe was elite at what he was asked to do. He also carried a much heavier offensive burden than Rodman. Rodman wasn’t asked to do anything aside from play defense and rebound. Kobe was asked to do nearly everything.

Kobe was the only Laker capable of disrupting Paul Pierce in the finals.

He held Reggie Miller to a pretty bad performance compared to his usual playoff craziness.

Rodman guarded the best of anyone's 2-4, pulled down double digit rebounds, kept offensive possesions alive when his teammates took bad shots, and served as the outlet passer in transition.

Yeah, he didn't score much at all, but he did everything else at a much much much higher level, and NEVER stalled his teams offense by holding the ball too long, or shooting them out of the game.

Say what you want, Kobe flat out **** the bed an inordinate number of times in the playoffs. Not just at the end of the game, or even just one bad game. He had multiple series where he was just awful. He was a little bit like Wilt, in that.

 

[apevol]

I know it’s blasphemy, but I see Kobe and MJ as even in terms of one-on-one players. I think they’re the two best ever at that. If it were possible, I’d pay a ton of money to watch them play one-one-one in their prime.

But MJ was a much better 5 on 5 player.

Young MJ wouldve been about like Kobe 1 on 1. Slightly more athletic, slightly less skilled.

Older MJ was ****in' juiced, and wouldve posted Kobe up and backed hi, down inside of 12 feet over and over.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Kobe was the only Laker capable of disrupting Paul Pierce in the finals.

He held Reggie Miller to a pretty bad performance compared to his usual playoff craziness.

Rodman guarded the best of anyone's 2-4, pulled down double digit rebounds, kept offensive possesions alive when his teammates took bad shots, and served as the outlet passer in transition.

Yeah, he didn't score much at all, but he did everything else at a much much much higher level, and NEVER stalled his teams offense by holding the ball too long, or shooting them out of the game.

Say what you want, Kobe flat out **** the bed an inordinate number of times in the playoffs. Not just at the end of the game, or even just one bad game. He had multiple series where he was just awful. He was a little bit like Wilt, in that.

Can’t argue with the playoff argument. He went even crazier with iso ball and shot his teams out of more than one series. He wanted to win so bad but he didn’t trust anyone else to help him do it. That was his biggest flaw. He would get into that zone sometimes where he would try and do everything himself. And unless he was on, it would almost guarantee a loss if he didn’t stop. But when he was on, it was amazing to watch. He’s one of a very small group of players who could actually win a game on their own.

And I wouldn’t go so far as to say Rodman did everything else at a much much higher level. He was a better rebounder. And I’ll give you more versatile defender. Maybe a tad more athletic. But he wasn’t asked to do as much as Kobe. Kobe was a superstar and the best player in the league for several seasons. Rodman was a niche player who was probably the 3rd best player on his title teams.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Young MJ wouldve been about like Kobe 1 on 1. Slightly more athletic, slightly less skilled.

Older MJ was ****in' juiced, and wouldve posted Kobe up and backed hi, down inside of 12 feet over and over.

Michael weighed about 195 when he started and played most of his career at around 205 to 210. With the Wizards he got up to 220 or so. Kobe played the majority of his at around 210 to 215. And they were both 6’6”. MJ wouldn’t be able to bully him like that. It wouldn’t be that simple. Probably would come down to who was having a better day shooting the ball.

 

[apevol]

Can’t argue with the playoff argument. He went even crazier with iso ball and shot his teams out of more than one series. He wanted to win so bad but he didn’t trust anyone else to help him do it. That was his biggest flaw. He would get into that zone sometimes where he would try and do everything himself. And unless he was on, it would almost guarantee a loss if he didn’t stop. But when he was on, it was amazing to watch. He’s one of a very small group of players who could actually win a game on their own.

And I wouldn’t go so far as to say Rodman did everything else at a much much higher level. He was a better rebounder. And I’ll give you more versatile defender. Maybe a tad more athletic. But he wasn’t asked to do as much as Kobe. Kobe was a superstar and the best player in the league for several seasons. Rodman was a niche player who was probably the 3rd best player on his title teams.

Rodman did all the **** nobody else wanted to do. Don't underestimate his ability to clean up defensive stands with a rebound. One of the few big mem fast twitch enough to contest a shot, and still able to spring right back up to grab the miss.

His offensive rebounding was especially important for the slowed down era he played in. He was a one man reset button on offense like nobody since Moses Malone.

He played both ends in a way no rebound specialist before him did. And he could do it for days on end.

He'd spend his time on the bench on an exercise bike so he could keep his legs warm. Its completely insane that he had that level of stamina, considering he was usually half drunk/hungover, or coming off some drug or another.

Id say its scary what he couldve been if hed lived a more wholesome, disciplined life, but I think he probably wouldve went insane and married his sister's sneakers

Dont overstate Kobe's D. He was great on D when he wanted to be. But at his best, he still wasnt quite as good as MJ, or Pippen, or squid, or GP, pr even Dumars or Havliceck.

He was basically Clyde Drexler with better handles, better footwork, better passing, and worse shooting and athletecism. Which is a really weird spot to be in.

 

[apevol]

Michael weighed about 195 when he started and played most of his career at around 205 to 210. With the Wizards he got up to 220 or so. Kobe played the majority of his at around 210 to 215. And they were both 6’6”. MJ wouldn’t be able to bully him like that. It wouldn’t be that simple. Probably would come down to who was having a better day shooting the ball.

Neither were legit 6'6.

 

[apevol]

Michael weighed about 195 when he started and played most of his career at around 205 to 210. With the Wizards he got up to 220 or so. Kobe played the majority of his at around 210 to 215. And they were both 6’6”. MJ wouldn’t be able to bully him like that. It wouldn’t be that simple. Probably would come down to who was having a better day shooting the ball.

Actually, I'll admit youre right here.
I think Jordan could post him up, and score over him when he was older, but Kobe would have the edge oitside of 20 ft.

 

[apevol]

Kobe and MJ both have this overinflated sense of their athletecism.

Both were extremely athletic. MJ a freak, and Kobe very close to being the same freak. There have been so many dudes as, or more freakish than them who neve did anything. Or even those who found success, but never quite that high.

Vince was freak with atheltecism superior to both, and was even a better 3 pt shooter than Kobe.

Still nowhere near either. And I'm just talking about offense

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Rodman did all the **** nobody else wanted to do. Don't underestimate his ability to clean up defensive stands with a rebound. One of the few big mem fast twitch enough to contest a shot, and still able to spring right back up to grab the miss.

His offensive rebounding was especially important for the slowed down era he played in. He was a one man reset button on offense like nobody since Moses Malone.

He played both ends in a way no rebound specialist before him did. And he could do it for days on end.

He'd spend his time on the bench on an exercise bike so he could keep his legs warm. Its completely insane that he had that level of stamina, considering he was usually half drunk/hungover, or coming off some drug or another.

Id say its scary what he couldve been if hed lived a more wholesome, disciplined life, but I think he probably wouldve went insane and married his sister's sneakers

Dont overstate Kobe's D. He was great on D when he wanted to be. But at his best, he still wasnt quite as good as MJ, or Pippen, or squid, or GP, pr even Dumars or Havliceck.

He was basically Clyde Drexler with better handles, better footwork, better passing, and worse shooting and athletecism. Which is a really weird spot to be in.

Offensive rebounding was important in that era. And Rodman was a big part of those championships. If he had actually applied himself instead of partying all the time, who knows what he could have been? He was a freak of nature athletically. Kind of like LeBron in that regard.

Kobe was great on D. Not one of the best of all time but elite nonetheless.

And Kobe was a phenomenal shooter. A little streaky but not too bad. Anyone who shoots 84 percent from the line is a great shooter. And he shot around 45 or 46 percent for his career which is kind of insane when you take into account all the bad shots he took and those ugly, injury riddled seasons at the end. He may have been the best contested jump shooter of all time. But he had no business taking, or making, those shots. There were almost always better options when he would jack those up. But that’s the Kobe paradox. His greatest flaw is also what makes him so impressive.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

Neither were legit 6'6.

Both were probably half an inch shy or so.

No way in hell is Isiah Thomas 5’9” but NBA teams list them like that sometimes. No idea why.

 

[apevol]

Offensive rebounding was important in that era. And Rodman was a big part of those championships. If he had actually applied himself instead of partying all the time, who knows what he could have been? He was a freak of nature athletically. Kind of like LeBron in that regard.

Kobe was great on D. Not one of the best of all time but elite nonetheless.

And Kobe was a phenomenal shooter. A little streaky but not too bad. Anyone who shoots 84 percent from the line is a great shooter. And he shot around 45 or 46 percent for his career which is kind of insane when you take into account all the bad shots he took and those ugly, injury riddled seasons at the end. He may have been the best contested jump shooter of all time. But he had no business taking, or making, those shots. There were almost always better options when he would jack those up. But that’s the Kobe paradox. His greatest flaw is also what makes him so impressive.

I'll take MJ's circus sideshow act layups over Kobe's offbalanced, 18 foot chucks

 

[apevol]

Both were probably half an inch shy or so.

No way in hell is Isiah Thomas 5’9” but NBA teams list them like that sometimes. No idea why.

Its down to how they want to be listed. Garnett always insisted he be billed as 6'11. He said it was cuz he didnt want to be pegged by coaches as a center, but how exactly do you hide that when you show up for training?