Nick Saban speaks about the 10 second proposal

[005]

Kleenex says bless you

 

[40Cap]

If he's so worried about his players getting hurt due to being gassed, why doesn't he use his timeouts to allow them to rest? Surely he isn't suggesting timeouts are more precious than player safety, is he? Personally, I think really big, fast, strong defenders running full speed into smaller, slower, weaker opponents is more dangerous than players playing tired.

 

[UT_Dutchman]

Nothing surprising here. Typical Bama whining. I wonder what Nicky's excuse is going to be when he drops a couple next year.

The QB has to count to 5 Mississippi before he can hand off, run, or throw it.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Hugs n stuff to you!

Well, as disrespectful as my comments might be I think many football fans feel the same way and I think our ranks are growing. It's not just Oregon, but Oregon is number one on the list.

The problem is really as bamawriter said, the refs, which can be basically corrected without really any rule changes.

With that said, I am not against no huddle and not really against faster pace... on the surface, if you only discuss that it seems like "hey no big deal". However, if you sit and watch a game you soon see that the way it's being used is distorting the game. Now of course, nobody has to listen to me but I will just stop watching it as it's not football.... it's more like watching flag football. imho

The refs are not even enforcing the rules on these teams Oklahoma could have easily had 5-8 more illegal procedures penalties on them but since the pace at times was so high... the refs can't even keep up with it.

So, I kind of agree with Saban in the full context, but I think he is kind of self serving, and I think he is attacking it in the wrong way... and yes, he is failing to adjust as well.

I just have no respect for what the Ducks are doing and it doesn't matter how many games they win. Oregon has the best flag football team in the nation, no disagreement from me on that.

 

[bamawriter]

It feels wrong to argee with you, SIU. But I'm pretty much right there with you.

 

[ABQduck]

Well, as disrespectful as my comments might be I think many football fans feel the same way and I think our ranks are growing. It's not just Oregon, but Oregon is number one on the list.

The problem is really as bamawriter said, the refs, which can be basically corrected without really any rule changes.

With that said, I am not against no huddle and not really against faster pace... on the surface, if you only discuss that it seems like "hey no big deal". However, if you sit and watch a game you soon see that the way it's being used is distorting the game. Now of course, nobody has to listen to me but I will just stop watching it as it's not football.... it's more like watching flag football. imho

The refs are not even enforcing the rules on these teams Oklahoma could have easily had 5-8 more illegal procedures penalties on them but since the pace at times was so high... the refs can't even keep up with it.

So, I kind of agree with Saban in the full context, but I think he is kind of self serving, and I think he is attacking it in the wrong way... and yes, he is failing to adjust as well.

I just have no respect for what the Ducks are doing and it doesn't matter how many games they win. Oregon has the best flag football team in the nation, no disagreement from me on that.

Fair enough. I'm more of a fan of read option than quick no huddle play (which was a bit slower last year than under CK).

 

[McCat]

Pitino thinks it's about 5 seconds too long.

 

[GoDucks349]

Saban “I really don’t necessarily have an opinion on the 10-second rule. I think there are three issues that need to be researched relative to pace of play, the first being player safety…I think it’s wear and tear and tougher to prepare players when you have to play against a hurry-up offense because of the way you have to practice…The second thing is, can officials officiate the game? They’re not in position when the ball is snapped, just like defensive players aren’t in position when the ball is snapped, so that’s a game administration issue that people should probably look into. And the third thing, to me, and the last thing, which is not the most important, I think the first is most important, is there any competitive imbalance created by the pace of play.”

1. From an Oregon perspective, here's a couple comments on practice and prepping to play against a hurry up offense. Oregon typically practices one hour less a day than "Alabama" type teams. This reduces the risk of injury. Second, to play the hurry up you have to be in better condition, this reduces injury. Sure teams that aren't in great shape do risk injury trying to play beyond their conditioning. Bigger and stronger isn't the same is being in great condition.

2. As for officials being in position, they will adjust and they will have to be in good shape to stay up and that's good for the game. As for defenses being in position, that's a matter of coaching and conditioning.

3. Couldn't agree more, slower less well conditioned teams will suffer. It's as simple as this, build a team to play the game rather than change the rules to fit a coaches style.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Well, player safety has nothing to do with it.... more plays, yes, more physical, no way in hell. It's flag football.

Les weighed in on the topic.

Les Miles weighs in on NCAA

I actually tend to agree with you on your points, but at the end of the day it's not football to me, which is my major sticking point.

Bamawriter is correct, enforce the rules you have in place today... instruct the refs better as they are catering to these offenses and generally I don't have a major issue with it other than my comments made before.

I am sorry but there is nothing better than reducing one of these teams that "think" they have a good offense to what they are truly are.

Seeing Johnny Football shaking his head saying I wonder why this ain't working this time was priceless. What it is, is bad football, it's just nobody wants to admit it.

 

[rjd970]

I think this business of the officials catering to the offenses is BS. It isn't like the offense is just going up to the official, grabbing the ball, and snapping it. The officials won't allow the play to start until they are set. If that happens in under 10 seconds, then it does. If it doesn't, the offense won't be able to snap until the officials are set.

Furthermore, the defense can sub every play if they want. If they need a substitution to stop the HUNH, then practice subbing during game prep week. As far as I know there isn't a rule stating the defense can only sub when the offense does.

The competitive disadvantage is stupid to. The defense can move guys around, disguise packages, blitz, fake blitz, etc, etc. Outside of being able to put one guy in motion, the only thing the offense has control over is the snap, and now they are trying to take that away. Even in cases where there is a formation shift before the snap, the personnel hasn't changed from the previous play, so what's the issue? The defense should be able to adjust.

All this just seems like butthurt from coaches and fans who's teams can't seem to figure this out or struggle stopping it.

 

[GoDucks349]

I think this business of the officials catering to the offenses is BS. It isn't like the offense is just going up to the official, grabbing the ball, and snapping it. The officials won't allow the play to start until they are set. If that happens in under 10 seconds, then it does. If it doesn't, the offense won't be able to snap until the officials are set.

Furthermore, the defense can sub every play if they want. If they need a substitution to stop the HUNH, then practice subbing during game prep week. As far as I know there isn't a rule stating the defense can only sub when the offense does.

The competitive disadvantage is stupid to. The defense can move guys around, disguise packages, blitz, fake blitz, etc, etc. Outside of being able to put one guy in motion, the only thing the offense has control over is the snap, and now they are trying to take that away. Even in cases where there is a formation shift before the snap, the personnel hasn't changed from the previous play, so what's the issue? The defense should be able to adjust.

All this just seems like butthurt from coaches and fans who's teams can't seem to figure this out or struggle stopping it.

I could be wrong, but I believe "currently" the defense can't sub unless the clock is stopped or the offense subs.

 

[bamawriter]

I think this business of the officials catering to the offenses is BS. It isn't like the offense is just going up to the official, grabbing the ball, and snapping it. The officials won't allow the play to start until they are set. If that happens in under 10 seconds, then it does. If it doesn't, the offense won't be able to snap until the officials are set.

That is how it should work. But you are completely wrong to suggest that officials are moving at the same pace when teams huddle as when they don't.

Furthermore, the defense can sub every play if they want. If they need a substitution to stop the HUNH, then practice subbing during game prep week. As far as I know there isn't a rule stating the defense can only sub when the offense does.

HUNH teams get "set" to prevent the defense from subbing, then do the meerkat routine to get the play from the sideline, then get set for real. If a defense tries to sub while the offense is set, it's illegal substitution. So no, defenses can't sub whenever they want. The HUNH teams are exploiting the inexplicable fact that refs don't call a false start on the meerkat stuff.

 

[rjd970]

That is how it should work. But you are completely wrong to suggest that officials are moving at the same pace when teams huddle as when they don't.



HUNH teams get "set" to prevent the defense from subbing, then do the meerkat routine to get the play from the sideline, then get set for real. If a defense tries to sub while the offense is set, it's illegal substitution. So no, defenses can't sub whenever they want. The HUNH teams are exploiting the inexplicable fact that refs don't call a false start on the meerkat stuff.

What does it matter if the officials go faster for HUNH? If they are set, they are set. They do it all the time for 2 minute drills. What's the difference?

As far as the meerkat stuff, it's still a stupid argument. In that case, did any personnel change from the previous play? You are acting like the offense is subbing without the defense getting a chance to. Both sides of the ball are working with the same people as before. Nobody says the defense can't adjust just like the offense is. I don't see the difference, the defense is all the time moving multiple guys around right up to the snap. If the offense subs so can the defense. If the offense is going conventional without subbing the defense can still sub. If they are running the meerkat stuff at worst it's a wash.

This all sounds like a coaching problem some are trying to solve with rule changes. On balance the defense already can do more pre-snap than the offense can. Now it is just whining from a select few because the offense has figured out a way to do one thing extra.

 

[TrueOrange]

I could be wrong, but I believe "currently" the defense can't sub unless the clock is stopped or the offense subs.

Once they start going to the line, you're right, they can't.


Which is probably why so many of the schools run it that way.

 

[bamawriter]

What does it matter if the officials go faster for HUNH? If they are set, they are set. They do it all the time for 2 minute drills. What's the difference?

The difference is having to up the pace for a couple of minutes at the end of each half as opposed to upping the pace for the entire game. You have much more faith in the conditioning levels of middle-aged, part-time officials than I do.

As far as the meerkat stuff, it's still a stupid argument. In that case, did any personnel change from the previous play? You are acting like the offense is subbing without the defense getting a chance to. Both sides of the ball are working with the same people as before. Nobody says the defense can't adjust just like the offense is. I don't see the difference, the defense is all the time moving multiple guys around right up to the snap. If the offense subs so can the defense. If the offense is going conventional without subbing the defense can still sub. If they are running the meerkat stuff at worst it's a wash.

You just changed arguments from "the defense can sub whenever they want" to "the defense shouldn't be able to sub unless the offense does."

I don't have a problem with teams hurrying to the line in order to keep an opponent in a bad package. But a team should not be allowed to get set and then completely unset. I'm sorry, but that's a false start.

Football, more than any other sport, is a game of strategy. Part of that strategy is weighing risk and reward. There is an obvious reward that comes with not huddling in order to trap your opponent. But the risk that should come along with that is a potential breakdown in communicating the play call. For whatever reason, there has been a universal acceptance of movement that in any other situation would be a false start. And that has lead to the risk being unfairly diminished for the HUNH teams. Most of them really aren't snapping the ball all that quickly. Yet they get all the reward with little of the risk.

This all sounds like a coaching problem some are trying to solve with rule changes. On balance the defense already can do more pre-snap than the offense can. Now it is just whining from a select few because the offense has figured out a way to do one thing extra.

I'm opposed to the proposed rule change. I just want to see the rules on the books be evenly enforced.

But your argument about what the defense can do pre-snap is a tad miopic. No matter how the defense moves or subs or fakes, the offense has the advantage to trump all advantages: they know the play.

 

[rjd970]

The difference is having to up the pace for a couple of minutes at the end of each half as opposed to upping the pace for the entire game. You have much more faith in the conditioning levels of middle-aged, part-time officials than I do.

Please. If they can't do it they wouldn't be officiating games. So your argument here is officials conditioning? From a game management perspective, if nobody has a problem with how the two minute drills are officiated, then nobody should have a problem with the rest of the game.

You just changed arguments from "the defense can sub whenever they want" to "the defense shouldn't be able to sub unless the offense does."

No I didn't. I said the only time the defense wouldn't have an opportunity to sub is with the meerkat stuff and it shouldn't matter because no personnel has changed on either side of the ball anyway. The defense can sub whenever and however they want in any other situation. They just need to be coached and prepared to do so. With the meerkat, the offense isn't subbing either. So what is the offense being allowed to do that the defense isn't?

I don't have a problem with teams hurrying to the line in order to keep an opponent in a bad package. But a team should not be allowed to get set and then completely unset. I'm sorry, but that's a false start.

Football, more than any other sport, is a game of strategy. Part of that strategy is weighing risk and reward. There is an obvious reward that comes with not huddling in order to trap your opponent. But the risk that should come along with that is a potential breakdown in communicating the play call. For whatever reason, there has been a universal acceptance of movement that in any other situation would be a false start. And that has lead to the risk being unfairly diminished for the HUNH teams. Most of them really aren't snapping the ball all that quickly. Yet they get all the reward with little of the risk.

You seem to be missing my point that all of that still doesn't matter. Personnel has not changed. Period. If the offense changes formations, then the defense can still adjust and change its formation. I fail to see the competitive imbalance.

What exactly is the offense being allowed to do that the defense isn't?

But your argument about what the defense can do pre-snap is a tad miopic. No matter how the defense moves or subs or fakes, the offense has the advantage to trump all advantages: they know the play.

Not sure of your point here. Of course the offense knows the play. They are still hamstringed more than the defense for pre-snap adjustments. And with most of these HUNH offenses now, there are several options for each play, so some of the players don't even know where the ball is going until the QB reads the defensive reaction to the play as it is happening real time.

 

[bamawriter]

Please. If they can't do it they wouldn't be officiating games. So your argument here is officials conditioning? From a game management perspective, if nobody has a problem with how the two minute drills are officiated, then nobody should have a problem with the rest of the game.

I have a problem with how many crews, particularly in the SEC, officiate whether they are going quickly or not. But it is an undeniable fact that when you start going quickly, in officiating or anything else, you are likely to miss details.

No I didn't. I said the only time the defense wouldn't have an opportunity to sub is with the meerkat stuff and it shouldn't matter because no personnel has changed on either side of the ball anyway. The defense can sub whenever and however they want in any other situation.

Actually, this is exactly what you said:

Furthermore, the defense can sub every play if they want. If they need a substitution to stop the HUNH, then practice subbing during game prep week. As far as I know there isn't a rule stating the defense can only sub when the offense does.

So yes, you changed arguments.

You seem to be missing my point that all of that still doesn't matter. Personnel has not changed. Period. If the offense changes formations, then the defense can still adjust and change its formation. I fail to see the competitive imbalance.

If the offense were to huddle, then the defense could take that opportunity to sub whether the offense did or not. But by rushing up to the line to get "set" with absolutely no intent to actually run a play, the offense is trapping the defense, and then taking their sweet time to get the play called in from the sideline. So they get the benefits of a huddle without running the risk of letting the defense sub.

As a matter of principle, I have no problem with a team going quickly. Oklahoma destroyed Bama's defense in the Sugar Bowl by running a series of scripted plays as quickly as they could. They were snapping the ball within the first 8-10 seconds of the play clock. They didn't do the meerkat routine, and simply relied on all eleven guys remembering the series of plays. There was certainly a risk involved, but they took it and made it pay off. I am all for a team doing that if they can make it happen.

But for all the talk about how quickly the majority of HUNH teams go, the fastest team in the country averaged a snap every 22 seconds. That's more than half of the play clock. That may be faster than huddling, but it's by no means shocking.

My gripe is that if an offensive lineman in a pro-style offense were to get set, and then stand straight up out of his stance, it would be a false start 100% of the time. Yet all 11 guys on a HUNH team can get completely set, and then move all at once, and that's totally okay. That is garbage, and is against any logical interpretation of the rulebook. Go quickly, I'm cool with it. But if you don't want to huddle and can't pre-script every single play, then you should have to call the play in from the sideline prior to the offense getting set, or have the QB communicate it like an audible while everyone else remains set.

 

[Orange_Crush]

What does it matter if the officials go faster for HUNH? If they are set, they are set. They do it all the time for 2 minute drills. What's the difference?

As far as the meerkat stuff, it's still a stupid argument. In that case, did any personnel change from the previous play? You are acting like the offense is subbing without the defense getting a chance to. Both sides of the ball are working with the same people as before. Nobody says the defense can't adjust just like the offense is. I don't see the difference, the defense is all the time moving multiple guys around right up to the snap. If the offense subs so can the defense. If the offense is going conventional without subbing the defense can still sub. If they are running the meerkat stuff at worst it's a wash.

This all sounds like a coaching problem some are trying to solve with rule changes. On balance the defense already can do more pre-snap than the offense can. Now it is just whining from a select few because the offense has figured out a way to do one thing extra.

One primary fundamental of football: "Take the ball and get on offense so you can dictate the game." Saban, a defensive-minded coach, wants to be able to dictate the game on defense by rule change.

 

[rjd970]

I have a problem with how many crews, particularly in the SEC, officiate whether they are going quickly or not. But it is an undeniable fact that when you start going quickly, in officiating or anything else, you are likely to miss details.



Actually, this is exactly what you said:





So yes, you changed arguments.



If the offense were to huddle, then the defense could take that opportunity to sub whether the offense did or not. But by rushing up to the line to get "set" with absolutely no intent to actually run a play, the offense is trapping the defense, and then taking their sweet time to get the play called in from the sideline. So they get the benefits of a huddle without running the risk of letting the defense sub.

As a matter of principle, I have no problem with a team going quickly. Oklahoma destroyed Bama's defense in the Sugar Bowl by running a series of scripted plays as quickly as they could. They were snapping the ball within the first 8-10 seconds of the play clock. They didn't do the meerkat routine, and simply relied on all eleven guys remembering the series of plays. There was certainly a risk involved, but they took it and made it pay off. I am all for a team doing that if they can make it happen.

But for all the talk about how quickly the majority of HUNH teams go, the fastest team in the country averaged a snap every 22 seconds. That's more than half of the play clock. That may be faster than huddling, but it's by no means shocking.

My gripe is that if an offensive lineman in a pro-style offense were to get set, and then stand straight up out of his stance, it would be a false start 100% of the time. Yet all 11 guys on a HUNH team can get completely set, and then move all at once, and that's totally okay. That is garbage, and is against any logical interpretation of the rulebook. Go quickly, I'm cool with it. But if you don't want to huddle and can't pre-script every single play, then you should have to call the play in from the sideline prior to the offense getting set, or have the QB communicate it like an audible while everyone else remains set.

Jesus, OK. You win the quipping battle here. There is one instance where the defense can't sub. But neither does the offense. Right? I don't know how to say that any more clear. Where is the disadvantage to the defense? The offense is huddling without huddling by getting the play from the sideline? Can the defense not do the same? Your gripe is that the offense is getting the benefit of a huddle (even though they aren't huddling) so the defense can't get a chance to sub. The offense isn't subbing either.

Fundamental question that gets at the heart of all this:


Exactly what is the offense doing in any of this that the defense isn't being allowed to do?

 

[bamawriter]

Jesus, OK. You win the quipping battle here. There is one instance where the defense can't sub. But neither does the offense. Right? I don't know how to say that any more clear. Where is the disadvantage to the defense? The offense is huddling without huddling by getting the play from the sideline? Can the defense not do the same? Your gripe is that the offense is getting the benefit of a huddle (even though they aren't huddling) so the defense can't get a chance to sub. The offense isn't subbing either.

Fundamental question that gets at the heart of all this:


Exactly what is the offense doing in any of this that the defense isn't being allowed to do?

That isn't the argument I'm making.

It isn't about the offense getting to do something the defense can't. It's about HUNH teams getting a free pass on the rulebook that pro-style teams do not. Calling plays without a huddle should not exempt you from illegal procedure/false start penalties.

 

[rjd970]

That isn't the argument I'm making.

It isn't about the offense getting to do something the defense can't. It's about HUNH teams getting a free pass on the rulebook that pro-style teams do not. Calling plays without a huddle should not exempt you from illegal procedure/false start penalties.

It simply isn't a false start and nobody is being exempt from anything. First off, shifting is allowed,
Per the rule:

A shift is a simultaneous change of position by two or more offensive
players after the ball is ready for play for a scrimmage play and before the
next snap (A.R. 7-1-3-II and III and A.R. 7-1-4-I-IV).

And as long as the players aren't simulating a snap, it isn't a false start, it is called out specifically:

Shifts and False Starts
ARTICLE 4. a. If a snap is preceded by a huddle or shift, all players of the
offensive team must come to an absolute stop and remain stationary in their
positions, without movement of the feet, body, head or arms, for at least one
full second before the ball is snapped (A.R. 7-1-4-I) [S20].
b. It is not intended that Rule 7-1-4-a should prohibit smooth, rhythmical
shifts if properly executed. A smooth cadence shift or unhurried motion
is not an infraction. However, it is the responsibility of an offensive
player who moves before the snap to do so in a manner that in no way
simulates the beginning of a play. After the ball is ready for play and
all players are in scrimmage formation, no offensive player shall make
a quick, jerky movement before the snap, including but not limited to
(A.R. 7-1-4-II-IV):
1. A lineman moving his foot, shoulder, arm, body or head in a quick,
jerky motion in any direction [S19].
2. The snapper shifting or moving the ball or moving his thumb or
fingers, flexing his elbows, jerking his head, or dipping his shoulders
or buttocks [S19].
3. The quarterback “chucking’’ his hands at the snapper, flexing his
elbows under the snapper, jerking his head or dropping his shoulders
quickly just before the snap [S19].
4. A player, before the snap, simulating receiving the ball by “chucking’’
his hands toward the snapper or quarterback or making any quick,
jerky movement that simulates the beginning of a play [S19].

And per the rules, anybody can substitute on any play:

ARTICLE 1. Any number of legal substitutes for either team may enter the
game between periods, after a score or try, or during the interval between downs
only for the purpose of replacing a player(s) or filling a player vacancy(ies).

And furthermore, the defense is protected, by the rules, to be allowed to substitute when the offense does:

While in the process of substitution or simulated substitution, Team A is
prohibited from rushing quickly to the line of scrimmage with the obvious
attempt of creating a defensive disadvantage. If the ball is ready for play, the
game officials will not permit the ball to be snapped until Team B has placed
substitutes in position and replaced players have left the field of play.

I still do not see where the offense is getting away with any rule breaking, or creating a competitive imbalance. I think if you read how the rules are written you would agree. Nobody is "getting away" or "trapping" anything.

 

[rjd970]

I'm not saying just Saban, there are other coaches too.

$3+ mil a year to coach for some of these guys and they are trying to get rules changed instead of doing what they are paid to do. smh.

 

[bamawriter]

It simply isn't a false start and nobody is being exempt from anything. First off, shifting is allowed,
Per the rule:


And as long as the players aren't simulating a snap, it isn't a false start, it is called out specifically:

They aren't shifting. Shifting would be WR A moving up to the LOS while WR B steps away. Rather, they are getting set, faking a snap count (or a snap signal if the QB is in the shotgun, which is how it usually is in the HUNH), and then getting completely unset as a unit. Rarely is anyone even changing position.

But even if one were to be extremely generous and call if a mass shift, that would mean the center would have to stay set, as he is not eligible to shift. That is not happening during the meerkat routine.

 

[MikeVol44]

I could be wrong, but I believe "currently" the defense can't sub unless the clock is stopped or the offense subs.

There is NO rule limiting your ability to substitute players in and out of the game--you must, however, be able to get the "old" players off the field of play before the next snap of the ball--that's what Miles described in his comments about the HUNH.

And ultimately, SABAN's intention is to have a GUARANTEE that he will be able to get a new DL into the game before the next play happens--be it from a 10-second rule or whatever. The 10-second rule would have been a slam dunk for him and would have allowed EVERY team out there the time, by RULE, to have 4 new DL ready to be run out on the field at the end of the last play--it's as simple as that. Everything else from Saban about this issue is just an ABSOLUTE SMOKESCREEN--IMO.

There is a rule saying that the defense must have time to run subs into the game if you sub on offense--and that's what happened to us at LSU when Dooley was here. Dooley RIGHTLY protested that the UMPIRE should have stood above the ball and allowed us time to run defensive subs on the field because of what LSU did--which would have only left about 2 or 3 seconds on the game clock IF the refs would have enforced the rules. :salute:

 

[MikeVol44]

They aren't shifting. Shifting would be WR A moving up to the LOS while WR B steps away. Rather, they are getting set, faking a snap count (or a snap signal if the QB is in the shotgun, which is how it usually is in the HUNH), and then getting completely unset as a unit. Rarely is anyone even changing position.

But even if one were to be extremely generous and call if a mass shift, that would mean the center would have to stay set, as he is not eligible to shift. That is not happening during the meerkat routine.

I agree with you 100%. Just watch Denver play--Peyton will get everyone set and say hut hut...when the ball isn't snapped--and Peyton audibles--the OL MOVE and sit back in their stance and even turn their heads sometimes to hear the call. The RB will sometimes move forward to hear the call--and then everyone gets "set" again before the actual snap.

Any other time that is illegal procedure and requires a penalty! :salute: