Nick Saban speaks about the 10 second proposal

[bamawriter]

I agree with you 100%. Just watch Denver play--Peyton will get everyone set and say hut hut...when the ball isn't snapped--and Peyton audibles--the OL MOVE and sit back in their stance and even turn their heads sometimes to hear the call. The RB will sometimes move forward to hear the call--and then everyone gets "set" again before the actual snap.

Any other time that is illegal procedure and requires a penalty! :salute:

I'm actually okay with the above scenario. If I were totally old school, I would say that a lineman rocking back on his heels to hear the QB should be a false start. But everyone, everywhere seems to get away with that. It's just the way it is.

But completely coming out of your stance and looking toward the sideline is a different matter entirely, and only HUNH are given the luxury.

 

[MikeVol44]

It simply isn't a false start and nobody is being exempt from anything. First off, shifting is allowed,
Per the rule:



And as long as the players aren't simulating a snap, it isn't a false start, it is called out specifically:





And per the rules, anybody can substitute on any play:



And furthermore, the defense is protected, by the rules, to be allowed to substitute when the offense does:



I still do not see where the offense is getting away with any rule breaking, or creating a competitive imbalance. I think if you read how the rules are written you would agree. Nobody is "getting away" or "trapping" anything.

Would saying "hut, hut" be a simulating a snap? Of course it is--would getting everyone read and set on the LOS and then calling out a cadence with a "hut" be simulating a snap--sure it is--just watch any Denver game.

They do the same thing in college--get everone set on the LOS and ready to snap the ball--and then change.

I understand what you're saying--they still have the ability to call audibles and shift--

I guess my question would be--what, exactly, constitutes simulating a snap? :salute:

 

[MikeVol44]

I'm actually okay with the above scenario. If I were totally old school, I would say that a lineman rocking back on his heels to hear the QB should be a false start. But everyone, everywhere seems to get away with that. It's just the way it is.

But completely coming out of your stance and looking toward the sideline is a different matter entirely, and only HUNH are given the luxury.

My point was to say that is it just a matter of timing?

After all--you let a lineman "rock back" or a WR flinch when the QB is calling out "hut, hut" and the flag will be thrown for sure! :salute:

 

[bamawriter]

My point was to say that is it just a matter of timing?

After all--you let a lineman "rock back" or a WR flinch when the QB is calling out "hut, hut" and the flag will be thrown for sure! :salute:

Decent point.

Maybe the most significant question:

If a defensive linemen mistook the meerkat routine for the snap of the ball and came across and made contact with an offensive linemen who just stood up to see the play, would the defender be excused for his encroachment? We all know the answer to that.

 

[rjd970]

They aren't shifting. Shifting would be WR A moving up to the LOS while WR B steps away. Rather, they are getting set, faking a snap count (or a snap signal if the QB is in the shotgun, which is how it usually is in the HUNH), and then getting completely unset as a unit. Rarely is anyone even changing position.

But even if one were to be extremely generous and call if a mass shift, that would mean the center would have to stay set, as he is not eligible to shift. That is not happening during the meerkat routine.

Yes, they are.

A shift is a simultaneous change of position by two or more offensive
players after the ball is ready for play for a scrimmage play and before the
next snap (A.R. 7-1-3-II and III and A.R. 7-1-4-I-IV).

Your argument that the offense is getting away with something simply isn't true with the given rules. It isn't a false start. It isn't breaking any rules. It isn't trapping the defense. It isn't creating a competitive imbalance.

The rules clearly state what is and isn't allowed.

Are you arguing the rules should be changed to not allow it, or are you arguing the rules aren't being enforced correctly? Arguing the merit of the rule is one thing, but you are absolutely wrong to argue the rules aren't being followed.

 

[rjd970]

Would saying "hut, hut" be a simulating a snap? Of course it is--would getting everyone read and set on the LOS and then calling out a cadence with a "hut" be simulating a snap--sure it is--just watch any Denver game.

They do the same thing in college--get everone set on the LOS and ready to snap the ball--and then change.

I understand what you're saying--they still have the ability to call audibles and shift--

I guess my question would be--what, exactly, constitutes simulating a snap? :salute:

Per the rules, any movement by an offensive player to simulate a snap. Anything else isn't.

Again, what exactly constitutes simulating a snap is clearly called out...

1. A lineman moving his foot, shoulder, arm, body or head in a quick,
jerky motion in any direction [S19].
2. The snapper shifting or moving the ball or moving his thumb or
fingers, flexing his elbows, jerking his head, or dipping his shoulders
or buttocks [S19].
3. The quarterback “chucking’’ his hands at the snapper, flexing his
elbows under the snapper, jerking his head or dropping his shoulders
quickly just before the snap [S19].
4. A player, before the snap, simulating receiving the ball by “chucking’’
his hands toward the snapper or quarterback or making any quick,
jerky movement that simulates the beginning of a play [S19].

Again, by the rules nothing is being done wrong with a shift in formation. And rightfully, the officials aren't calling it a false start.

Arguing the actual merit of the rule is a different thing.

 

[bamawriter]

Yes, they are.



Your argument that the offense is getting away with something simply isn't true with the given rules. It isn't a false start. It isn't breaking any rules. It isn't trapping the defense. It isn't creating a competitive imbalance.

The rules clearly state what is and isn't allowed.

Are you arguing the rules should be changed to not allow it, or are you arguing the rules aren't being enforced correctly? Arguing the merit of the rule is one thing, but you are absolutely wrong to argue the rules aren't being followed.

You are still wrong.

A shift is a simultaneous change of position by two or more offensive players after the ball is ready for play for a scrimmage play and before the next snap

Who is changing position? If we are talking about backs splitting out of the I, or WRs shifting sides of the field, or stepping on or off the line, I'm with you. But that doesn't happen every time they look to the sidelines. But even then, what about the five offensive linemen who are standing up and going right back where they were?

And like I said before, centers aren't allowed to shift at all. So how do they get excused under your interpretation of the rules?

 

[rjd970]

You are still wrong.



Who is changing position? If we are talking about backs splitting out of the I, or WRs shifting sides of the field, or stepping on or off the line, I'm with you. But that doesn't happen every time they look to the sidelines. But even then, what about the five offensive linemen who are standing up and going right back where they were?

And like I said before, centers aren't allowed to shift at all. So how do they get excused under your interpretation of the rules?

Feel free to point out where in the rules I, and every official over recent history at every game, is wrong. I'll wait.

As for the lineman and position nonsense your posting, I will, just for kicks, post it, yet, again:

1. A lineman moving his foot, shoulder, arm, body or head in a quick,
jerky motion in any direction [S19].
2. The snapper shifting or moving the ball or moving his thumb or
fingers, flexing his elbows, jerking his head, or dipping his shoulders
or buttocks [S19].
3. The quarterback “chucking’’ his hands at the snapper, flexing his
elbows under the snapper, jerking his head or dropping his shoulders
quickly just before the snap [S19].
4. A player, before the snap, simulating receiving the ball by “chucking’’
his hands toward the snapper or quarterback or making any quick,
jerky movement that simulates the beginning of a play [S19].

Bottomline, unless any of the above happens, it is legal for the offense to move and do what they want.

 

[bamawriter]

Feel free to point out where in the rules I, and every official over recent history at every game, is wrong. I'll wait.

As for the lineman and position nonsense your posting, I will, just for kicks, post it, yet, again:



Bottomline, unless any of the above happens, it is legal for the offense to move and do what they want.

So, why is it that when a couple of linemen get the snap count wrong and step back before the snap, that's not a "shift"? I'm also curious as to how standing up and going back into the same position constitutes a change of position.

And you still haven't explained why the center is allowed to "shift" when the rule clearly states that he is the only player on the field who isn't allowed to.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot get every player getting set and moving to fit into the shift rule. You simply can't. But I credit you for trying. After your "defense can sub whenever they want" argument fell apart, you haven't given up.

 

[rjd970]

So, why is it that when a couple of linemen get the snap count wrong and step back before the snap, that's not a "shift"? I'm also curious as to how standing up and going back into the same position constitutes a change of position.

And you still haven't explained why the center is allowed to "shift" when the rule clearly states that he is the only player on the field who isn't allowed to.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot get every player getting set and moving to fit into the shift rule. You simply can't. But I credit you for trying. After your "defense can sub whenever they want" argument fell apart, you haven't given up.

You've gone full on stupid at this point. The defense can sub whenever they want, the specific single instance when they can't, neither is the offense.

And obviously the jerking back of an OL falls into the SPECIFICALLY called out part of the rules that says it isn't allowed. I'm not going to post the rule a 4th time because you are obviously not willing to read it or too dumb to understand it.

Likewise, I credit you for trying to argue on a rivals internet message board where every official in the history of the game has been wrong up to this point and you are right.

 

[rjd970]

It's amazing every team in the country isn't doing this every play, since it is obvious the rules are written with such a clear advantage to the offense. Amazing I tell ya.

 

[bamawriter]

You've gone full on stupid at this point. The defense can sub whenever they want, the specific single instance when they can't, neither is the offense.

Let's just pretend like you were saying that all along. Pretending is fun.

And obviously the jerking back of an OL falls into the SPECIFICALLY called out part of the rules that says it isn't allowed. I'm not going to post the rule a 4th time because you are obviously not willing to read it or too dumb to understand it.

Then why is the entire line allowed to stand up and take a step backward in order to look at their sideline when they near the opposing endzone?

Speaking of the fourth time, I am asking for the fourth time how the center is allowed to "shift" when the rule specifically says he can't. You keep not answering that question, probably because it's not possible to reconcile the two.

Likewise, I credit you for trying to argue on a rivals internet message board where every official in the history of the game has been wrong up to this point and you are right.

I have never heard an official comment on it. It comes off as nothing other than a universal acceptance of behavior despite the rulebook.

 

[rjd970]

Let's just pretend like you were saying that all along. Pretending is fun.



Then why is the entire line allowed to stand up and take a step backward in order to look at their sideline when they near the opposing endzone?

Speaking of the fourth time, I am asking for the fourth time how the center is allowed to "shift" when the rule specifically says he can't. You keep not answering that question, probably because it's not possible to reconcile the two.



I have never heard an official comment on it. It comes off as nothing other than a universal acceptance of behavior despite the rulebook.

I have been saying that all along. You found an instance where I said the defense can shift whenever they want, you called out the meerkat and said "see, your wrong about everything!". Its a quip and stupid semantic. My point all along is the defense is allowed to sub whenever the offense is, and the offense not subbing doesn't necessarily mean the defense can't. If that is all you have to hang your hat on, its pretty pathetic. Given what you are trying to argue here, that isn't surprising.

Where does the rule specifically say the center can't shift? As long as he doesn't move the ball or simulate a snap I'm not sure he can't move either. Vanderbilt did it last year because they had multiple guys on the OL that could play center.

Vanderbilt’s complete offensive line shift (including the center) to unbalanced | Smart Football

...and what do you know, the defense shifted accordingly as well.

Its just crazy that you have never heard an official comment on this. I'm still waiting for you to point out in the rule book that says any of this should be illegal.

 

[bamawriter]

I have been saying that all along.

This was your first comment on the matter, and I responded to it before you had gone any further. I did not cherry-pick.

Furthermore, the defense can sub every play if they want. If they need a substitution to stop the HUNH, then practice subbing during game prep week. As far as I know there isn't a rule stating the defense can only sub when the offense does.

When I pointed out that getting set prevents a defensive substitution, you tried to act like you had argued that all along. And proceeded onto the "what difference does it make?" train.

You found an instance where I said the defense can shift whenever they want, you called out the meerkat and said "see, your wrong about everything!".

I never said anything of the kind. And not simply because I know the difference between "your" and "you're".

Its a quip and stupid semantic. My point all along is the defense is allowed to sub whenever the offense is, and the offense not subbing doesn't necessarily mean the defense can't. If that is all you have to hang your hat on, its pretty pathetic. Given what you are trying to argue here, that isn't surprising.

That has never been my argument, and it's seriously not possible for that to be any more clear. I have never once made any kind of statement that the defense should be afforded the opportunity to sub at will.

Where does the rule specifically say the center can't shift?

Within the same exact section of the rulebook you've been copying and pasting from. Same page in fact. Look for the word "snapper".

As long as he doesn't move the ball or simulate a snap I'm not sure he can't move either.

He can. Centers point or otherwise indicate to audible the blocking scheme all the time. But there is a difference between moving and shifting when it comes to the rulebook. You are bent on combining the two, but they aren't the same.

Vanderbilt did it last year because they had multiple guys on the OL that could play center.

Vandy hadn't gotten set yet. I remember the play. The color guy even commented on it during the replay.

Its just crazy that you have never heard an official comment on this. I'm still waiting for you to point out in the rule book that says any of this should be illegal.

Look under "False Start" and "Illegal Procedure". It's only a couple of pages from what you've been copying.

That said, I'm done with this particular discussion. I find it tiresome to argue with someone who not only varies his own argument while pretending to be consistent, but constantly misrepresents my position. Feel free to have the last word.

 

[rjd970]

This was your first comment on the matter, and I responded to it before you had gone any further. I did not cherry-pick.



When I pointed out that getting set prevents a defensive substitution, you tried to act like you had argued that all along. And proceeded onto the "what difference does it make?" train.



I never said anything of the kind. And not simply because I know the difference between "your" and "you're".



That has never been my argument, and it's seriously not possible for that to be any more clear. I have never once made any kind of statement that the defense should be afforded the opportunity to sub at will.



Within the same exact section of the rulebook you've been copying and pasting from. Same page in fact. Look for the word "snapper".



He can. Centers point or otherwise indicate to audible the blocking scheme all the time. But there is a difference between moving and shifting when it comes to the rulebook. You are bent on combining the two, but they aren't the same.



Vandy hadn't gotten set yet. I remember the play. The color guy even commented on it during the replay.



Look under "False Start" and "Illegal Procedure". It's only a couple of pages from what you've been copying.

That said, I'm done with this particular discussion. I find it tiresome to argue with someone who not only varies his own argument while pretending to be consistent, but constantly misrepresents my position. Feel free to have the last word.

Now you are resorting to grammar nonsense? Look at, and read this very carefully about the "snapper":

2. The snapper shifting or moving the ball or moving his thumb or
fingers, flexing his elbows, jerking his head, or dipping his shoulders
or buttocks [S19].

Is this what you are referring to that I posted? Where are you seeing the snapper can't shift? Please point it out to me. It is no different than any other player.

And no, I'm not combining "moving" and "shifting". You are. I have very clearly stated, and showed in the rulebook, where they are two different things. It is clearly stated in the section you are too dumb to understand. This isn't surprising. You are grasping at straws and throwing around some comment out of context I made to save face at this point.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, being done by the offense with regards to "shifting" and "moving" is being done outside the rules. The entire history of football officials agrees with me.

 

[Vol4life25]

It feels wrong to argee with you, SIU. But I'm pretty much right there with you.

Have I told you lately that........AJ sucks

 

[bamawriter]

Have I told you lately that........AJ sucks

I'm sure you realize that we're less about 2 months away from a massive bump, wherein I will be rubbing your God awful prediction in your face.

 

[Vol4life25]

I'm sure you realize that we're less about 2 months away from a massive bump, wherein I will be rubbing your God awful prediction in your face.

Being drafted doesn't mean anything, starting on an nfl team does.

When he starts and plays 4 quarters on an NFL team.....win or lose

I'll admit I'm wrong. (Jets don't count)

 

[bamawriter]

Being drafted doesn't mean anything, starting on an nfl team does.

When he starts and plays 4 quarters on an NFL team.....win or lose

I'll admit I'm wrong. (Jets don't count)

Draft meant the world to you this time last year. And I'm not concerned with you admitting anything. You'll be wrong no matter what.

 

[Vol4life25]

Draft meant the world to you this time last year. And I'm not concerned with you admitting anything. You'll be wrong no matter what.

Hahahaha ok AJ will start on an NFL team..lol

I've got a better chance with Megan fox, Peterman could play on that team and win 9 games

 

[Vol4life25]

Hey Bamawriter....

How long does it take to beat Alabama?


One second or SOONER!!


Bahahahaha

 

[bamawriter]

Hahahaha ok AJ will start on an NFL team..lol

I've got a better chance with Megan fox, Peterman could play on that team and win 9 games

When did I say he'd start for anyone?

You can't change that target after your predicition blows up in your face.

 

[bamawriter]

Hey Bamawriter....

How long does it take to beat Alabama?


One second or SOONER!!


Bahahahaha

How long will it take for Tennessee to score more than 17 points on Alabama? More than a decade.

No laugh from me on that one. It was funny a few years ago, now it's just sad.

 

[Vol4life25]

How long will it take for Tennessee to score more than 17 points on Alabama? More than a decade.

No laugh from me on that one. It was funny a few years ago, now it's just sad.

Don't be mad bro...3rd runner up in the SEC and Oklahoma's play toy is still alright.

 

[bamawriter]

Don't be mad bro...3rd runner up in the SEC and Oklahoma's play toy is still alright.

As opposed to missing a bowl three years in a row? Yeah, it's alright.