NLRB Rules College Athletes are EMPLOYEES

[Voltopia]

I think the NLRB over-reached. Specifically in this finding: "...that the players perform that work in exchange for compensation...."

Calling it "work" is disingenuous. It is play, not work.

The proof? "98% of college athletes go pro in something other than sports." What does that mean? It means the vast majority of college athletes don't see it as a job, they see it as play, as fun, as a pastime. Maybe a high-demand one, but still a voluntary activity that they do for some reason other than pay.

And if the 98% see it as fun, as sport and not a job, how many of the other 2% also see it as fun? Not a job?

I would guess most. Far more than half. The norm, in other words. They'd do it even if there were no chance to go pro.

But we can't know for sure.

What we do know is that it is not accurately called "work."

And so the NLRB over-reached with this description. And without this description, their finding does not wash.

This should be challenged in court. This is one the NCAA, or Dartmouth, or whoever, could win.

Go Vols!

Yeah but you can't do that. You can't create a special category for work and call it play. That's what the NCAA did, or tried to do, these past hundred years. Trying to call it "play" is really not much different than the NCAA trying to call them "student-athletes." The moment any school or any entity tries to call it "play," or carve out some other special destinction that allows it to be treated as anything other than employment, is the moment they'll get hauled to court, and the precedent being set right now will support them. "Oh, they're doing it for the fun of the sport." Won't matter, not to a court, and not to the law.

People have lobbied for years for the players to be compensated as workers. And now they're getting what they wanted. WIth all the rights and privileges of employment contained therein.

 

[volroadwarrior]

Shop stewards determine who plays and who doesn't? Lineups decided by seniority instead of by talent or merit? Sit down strikes, grievances and collective bargaining when practice gets too hard? NIL pay by seniority? Sit down strike just before a big game with a stadium full of paying fans?

Sounds like a good plan to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[OrangeBeachVol]

Lets look at this another way. Maybe this mucks things up even more for the NCAA and gives TN additional ammunition on their lawsuit on how things are so confusing and contradictory how can one follow all these rules and changes.

 

[DonDiego]

Shop stewards determine who plays and who doesn't? Lineups decided by seniority instead of by talent or merit? Sit down strikes, grievances and collective bargaining when practice gets too hard? NIL pay by seniority? Sit down strike just before a big game with a stadium full of paying fans?

Sounds like a good plan to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The NFL (and all other major league sports) are unionized. What you described is not exactly how it works with them.

 

[goldvol]

Regarding the definition of work, can most of us agree that the result of college sports is a product that is sold? It generates revenue for the company (school/league). In that respect, the enjoyment of it doesn't matter and someone is profiting from your effort. I'm not saying that athletes don't get any benefit, because they get room, board, and scholarships.

Just want to point out that in my opinion it definitely is work. Most of them are hoping to continue the same work into the professional arena, where the effort results in a marketable product.

This also differentiates it from high school/ elementary sports, which don't generate revenue (generally)

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Regarding the definition of work, can most of us agree that the result of college sports is a product that is sold? It generates revenue for the company (school/league). In that respect, the enjoyment of it doesn't matter and someone is profiting from your effort. I'm not saying that athletes don't get any benefit, because they get room, board, and scholarships.

Just want to point out that in my opinion it definitely is work. Most of them are hoping to continue the same work into the professional arena, where the effort results in a marketable product.

This also differentiates it from high school/ elementary sports, which don't generate revenue (generally)

In my framework, that is not work. But after a while, arguing semantics becomes a losing game for everyone involved.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly believe student athletes should have the right to seek compensation for their NIL. And even beyond that, I think they should benefit financially from the revenue generated by their sport for the university.

If you think I was attempting to deny the lads that in my argument that sport =/= work, I should have been clearer.

In fact, here's how I feel about how college athletes should be compensated:

Transfer Portal is a disaster (read posts #477 and #489).

I believe the "booty" system could do both for us: compensate the athletes as they should be, while still keeping them STUDENTS at the universities rather than EMPLOYEES.

At the end of the day, we're each going to define "work" in our own way.

As long as we share the goals of (1) getting the athletes appropriate compensation for the value they bring, and (2) preventing the college athletics system from falling to pieces or devolving into an unsatisfying marriage of professional and academic.

Go Vols!

 

[DaddyChad]

The NLRB is an illegitimate authority regardless of whether they're right about this or not.

That said, all their ruling assures is that legislators will have cover and the courts will eventually "create law" to govern this. The absolute WORST of all possibilities.

Yep think of the most idiotic law possible to govern it. That’s your best possibility when you involve politicians.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

In my framework, that is not work. But after a while, arguing semantics becomes a losing game for everyone involved.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly believe student athletes should have the right to seek compensation for their NIL. And even beyond that, I think they should benefit financially from the revenue generated by their sport for the university.

If you think I was attempting to deny the lads that in my argument that sport =/= work, I should have been clearer.

In fact, here's how I feel about how college athletes should be compensated:

Transfer Portal is a disaster (read posts #477 and #489).

I believe the "booty" system could do both for us: compensate the athletes as they should be, while still keeping them STUDENTS at the universities rather than EMPLOYEES.

At the end of the day, we're each going to define "work" in our own way.

As long as we share the goals of (1) getting the athletes appropriate compensation for the value they bring, and (2) preventing the college athletics system from falling to pieces or devolving into an unsatisfying marriage of professional and academic.

Go Vols!

I think that's semantics about "work." I can see your definition and my knees started hurting when you shared about the stupid, crazy amount of time spent doing sports simply for the fun of it and the love of competing.

Kavanaugh addressed that directly when going after the NCAA in Alston. You can't create a business model to exploit that youthful love of sports and make millions doing it. Had your hockey been televised and sold, eventually I'll wager you'd have felt "I'm putting a lot into this and they're making all the coin. That's not fair."

And seriously, dude, water polo? Legalized and barely controlled attempts at drowning people.

 

[SuzyVol]

This is a Regional Director's decision. Early in the process. We can check back in a couple of years.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

This is a Regional Director's decision. Early in the process. We can check back in a couple of years.

I laughed at this. I envisioned your life in a cubicle rolling your eyes at a memo. I know that feeling.

I hope this drags on and on and on and on.....

 

[WallyBalls]

The NFL (and all other major league sports) are unionized. What you described is not exactly how it works with them.

Its pretty sad what some people will believe about the way it works, quite honestly.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

And seriously, dude, water polo? Legalized and barely controlled attempts at drowning people.

I see you understand the sport entirely.

 

[DiderotsGhost]

The problem with this is that it's actually complicated.

There's no way a NCAA rower or volleyball player is an "employee". Neither men's nor women's rowing is a profitable enterprise and the schools are spending to allow students to do these activities.

It's really only football and men's basketball that make money. And as much as I don't want the players getting exploited, I also don't want the other NCAA athletes in the gazillion non-income producing sports to see their scholarships eliminated because they get classified as "employees".

 

[volfan4evr]

SIAP, but am I wrong in assuming that the Universities don't actually "pay" the Athletes? I thought the players were paid through the cooperative.

 

[kcvols1]

You got some things wrong, KC.

For instance, ALL cadets and midshipmen get paid a monthly stipend. Not just the athletes. And it's the same for all cadets/ midshipmen. So that pay is NOT for being an athlete.

For instance, ALL cadets and midshipmen get medical care. Not just the athletes. [I have an amusing anecdote about this, but won't bore you with it]

All cadets and midshipmen get food, as much as they can eat, 3 meals a day, every day of the year. Not just the athletes.

And so on.

Do the athletes get workout clothes? Sure, but every cadet and midshipman gets workout clothes. Only difference is the football player's clothes say "Army football" on the front while the cadet not in a sport gets the one that says "Army."

The athletes get their travel and lodging paid for when they're on team trips for games or matches. But every cadet or midshipmen gets travel and lodging paid for when they're on Army business, like going to airborne school or for a month of CTLT somewhere in the world.

So almost every benefit you claimed for the athletes, those aren't unique to the athletes. Not at the academies.

Now, you missed the small, ancillary benefits academy athletes get beyond the other cadets and midshipmen. But they are so small, so ancillary, they really don't help your argument. Things like "squad tables" (which means a separate set of tables in the dining hall set aside for each team to eat as a group). Things like being excused from parade drill when their sport is in season (because they're practicing instead).

It's not work. And they're not really being compensated in the way that you think. The pride of being an Army football player (or baseball, or hockey, or whatever) is really the only BIG difference between them and other cadets.

I can't tell you about the differences between Dartsmouth and Northwestern. But I sure know how the academies work. And I can tell you, every single student-athlete at the academies is in sport because they WANT to be, not as a form of 'work.'

I suspect that's true of almost all student-athletes at almost all universities throughout the country. Indeed, the world.

Go Vols!

That’s a fair opinion brother and I respect it.

 

[turbovol]

It's a completely idiotic ruling by the NLRB. It sounds like a laughably activist decision by an activist agency. I think we've seen this crazy notion that athletes are somehow exploited take hold in this social-justice era and spin out of control. We especially see it with this insane decision--and all the rest that is going on.

First, I doubt Dartmouth basketball makes any money. If it does, it's not much--as like every school the team has to travel and there are administrative costs and an Ivy League BB program is not drawing huge crowds. I'm sure there is a radio--but it's probably no more than local--and Dartmouth is in a rural area. Any tiny revenue that it might make would get put back into the athletic department to cover costs---and to finance all other Dartmouth sports. And they are all, except football, money losers. Yet somehow Dartmouth BB players have come to believe that they should be paid.

It's nonsense. If it were obvious that student-athletes were "employees," why hasn't this ever come up in the past 100 years of college athletics? Are high-school players employees too? There's very little difference. I'm quite sure that nobody is getting rich off of Dartmouth BB---or any sport at any college. This is the crazy myth that seems to have taken hold. Athletics at Ivy League or any schools that are small(ish) and not so insane about winning as the majors are nothing but a cost center.

I would love to see Darthmouth respond by, for starters, denying any financial aid requests from men's BB players. And then cancel the BB program altogether. And, of course, if the BB players are allowed to unionize and demand to be paid, then all the other student-athletes will do the same, and then what have you got?

After-school sports has been around practically since schools were started--150, 200 years. They were started--required at many schools--because they are considered a healthy way to build strong bodies and minds, to learn fair play in life, to foster teamwork. It's rather sad to see all of this self-indulgent nonsense.

 

[tennesseeduke]

Just part of the next steps of the cluster F$%^. Players will become employees of the university and then lawsuits will be a daily thing. As an HR manager and professional, pandora's box is about to be opened even more. I can see when a player doesn't receive NIL money they file a lawsuit claiming disparate treatment. An injury gets a workers comp case. A player receives FMLA because he cannot play. What a freaking mess!

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Just part of the next steps of the cluster F$%^. Players will become employees of the university and then lawsuits will be a daily thing. As an HR manager and professional, pandora's box is about to be opened even more. I can see when a player doesn't receive NIL money they file a lawsuit claiming disparate treatment. An injury gets a workers comp case. A player receives FMLA because he cannot play. What a freaking mess!

Health insurance for injuries is already part of college and I'm unsure if they'll be 1099 employees or not.

I recall reading that for tennis, players were considered 1099 because it's primarily an individual support but for pro football they were salaried employees.

NIL lawsuits, unless the schools start their own NIL, will be directed as contract disputes for their individual contracts, as they are now I suppose.

It's definitely a mess but the biggest mess is that most schools simply can't afford the payroll increase.

 

[Swiftybaby]

If you’re told where to go, what to do, when to show up, AND make money for said whoever is telling you these things, then you are an employee

 

[woodpusher]

Would a cadet/midshipman/air force be allowed to accept NIL?

If the company had business with FedGov, it might be disallowed.
I am thinking the typical cadet/midshipman/air force student would not have much influence over awarding a FedGov contract.
I realize Roger Staubachs/David Robinsons are few and far between.

 

[turbovol]

There have already been a lot of colleges that have eliminated some of their sports programs because of funding/budget
problems. There will be more of that at all levels if this nonsense continues.

For decades colleges have spent money--lots of it--to give students an opportunity to pursue athletic activities that they love, to represent the school in those activities, etc. Now some misguided players, activists and others--including a couple of confused judges, it would seem--are framing athletics as the players doing the schools a favor. There wouldn't be volleyball, soccer, tennis and swimming and all the other non-revenue sports at UT or any college if it weren't for the schools agreeing to spend heavily to fund all those sports to give the students athletic opportunity. And the only reason they can is because of football. You start telling the colleges they've got to devote 10 percent or whatever of their budgets to pay football players who are already getting the equivalent of some $50,000 a year in scholarship money (including medical, tutoring, counseling, coaching--the whole nine yards)--and the athletic departments will look for ways to cut costs. IN reality, you could be looking at some football players getting paid significantly via a free college education, getting a second large sum of money via NIL deals AND, on top of those two, getting an employee paycheck. That would be totally insane--beyond stupid for the schools. The first thing they should do is ax all scholarship money for football players...and start sacking any and all football players who aren't cutting it as "employees."

 

[Gandalf]

I dont think making them employees is going to go well at all. Then of course, they have benefits, healtcare, etc. That will eliminate all sports but the most profitable.

I think the best is still to keep the NIL money outside of the school itself. Arms distance is best here IMO.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

If you’re told where to go, what to do, when to show up, AND make money for said whoever is telling you these things, then you are an employee

You mean I'm employed by the Mrs?

 

[woodpusher]

In my framework, that is not work. But after a while, arguing semantics becomes a losing game for everyone involved.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly believe student athletes should have the right to seek compensation for their NIL. And even beyond that, I think they should benefit financially from the revenue generated by their sport for the university.

If you think I was attempting to deny the lads that in my argument that sport =/= work, I should have been clearer.

In fact, here's how I feel about how college athletes should be compensated:

Transfer Portal is a disaster (read posts #477 and #489).

I believe the "booty" system could do both for us: compensate the athletes as they should be, while still keeping them STUDENTS at the universities rather than EMPLOYEES.

At the end of the day, we're each going to define "work" in our own way.

As long as we share the goals of (1) getting the athletes appropriate compensation for the value they bring, and (2) preventing the college athletics system from falling to pieces or devolving into an unsatisfying marriage of professional and academic.

Go Vols!

What happens when the students get together and decide they want 0.2%?

 

[kcvols1]

Let’s look at this another way. Maybe this mucks things up even more for the NCAA and gives TN additional ammunition on their lawsuit on how things are so confusing and contradictory how can one follow all these rules and changes.

I agree the cases both involve payments to college athletes, but they are not analogous.

NLRB can only rule on matters with private employers. NCAA case involves public entities by and large.

Also NIL contracts deal with publicity and likeness rights whereas NLRB rulings are in the Labor & Employment context involving wages for work performed.

I mean work by the NLRB interpretation of the word, which I understand to be a matter of controversy to some.