No. 2 Al Qaeda leader dead from drone strike

#27
#27
therealUT said:
This is exactly what both the Bush and Obama Administration do; and, they also try to stonewall the Pakistani Government when it complains that the U.S. is killing civilians by asking the Pakistani Government to prove that they were not Taliban, Haqqani, or AQ combatants (the U.S. never offers proof that they were, though).

The drone program is murdering scores of individuals and the U.S. response (after these summary executions) is simply: prove they were innocent. It is disgusting.
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Are you completely anti-war? Or do you believe there are other ways of going about it? I've seen you mention that you are a military ethicist, so i would actually enjoy hearing what your views are regarding military action.
 
#29
#29
therealUT said:
This is exactly what both the Bush and Obama Administration do; and, they also try to stonewall the Pakistani Government when it complains that the U.S. is killing civilians by asking the Pakistani Government to prove that they were not Taliban, Haqqani, or AQ combatants (the U.S. never offers proof that they were, though).

The drone program is murdering scores of individuals and the U.S. response (after these summary executions) is simply: prove they were innocent. It is disgusting.
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So how would you go about killing terrorists? Sadly, civilian casualties are a part of war and have been since the dawn of mankind.
 
#30
#30
golfballs said:
Civilians might not be combatants but if they are aware of these terrorist and ont do anything about it then **** em, they can go up in flames too
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Wasn't this one of the arguments bin Laden used to justify killing civilians in America? That Americans were not doing anything to stop the killing, oppression, and robbery that was be carried out by our government?
 
#31
#31
Burhead said:
I don't agree with the drone strikes as well. We continue to violate a country's sovereignty not to mention kill a dozen or so civilians in a typical strike. Are we really "winning" when we kill one terrorist but also kill 12 other innocent people?
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So what's the alternative?
 
#32
#32
therealUT said:
I cannot agree with you. What our government reports is severely under-reported. These drone strikes often result in more civilians killed than militants, and often the DoD does not record the deaths.



Any U.S. Government figures on civilian casualties from drone strikes are going to be as completely low-balled as possible; and, they do not even match up with the reparations payments that the U.S. makes to the families of those killed that the U.S. officially recognizes as civilian noncombatants.
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Your call, I've seen it first hand. I do agree that what eventually gets released appears questionable. There is a lot more complexity than most want to admit and the truth is often somewhere in between.
 
#33
#33
Let's be honest here, the death of this guy is just going to reinforce the case for our drone programs.
 
#34
#34
therealUT said:
Wasn't this one of the arguments bin Laden used to justify killing civilians in America? That Americans were not doing anything to stop the killing, oppression, and robbery that was be carried out by our government?
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So what? That's what conflicts are: Opposing ideas culminating in a common goal - to defeat the "enemy"

Edit: the difference is - our target, at least, is the terrorist himself. Terrorist attacks carried out strictly against civilians is very different
 
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#35
#35
GoBigOrangeUT said:
Are you completely anti-war? Or do you believe there are other ways of going about it? I've seen you mention that you are a military ethicist, so i would actually enjoy hearing what your views are regarding military action.
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I think you can, and I fully support, fighting wars of pure national defense (that is, simply defending one's borders from an armed invasion); I also believe that a nation has every right to fortify their borders in whatever way they see fit, to include missile defense.

I think that humanitarian intervention is a duty; however, I do not believe that humanitarian intervention automatically comes with the right to kill. I think it is the right to rescue those who choose to be rescued (even if that means relocation); if, in performing the rescue, you come under fire, I believe in the right to defend yourself with deadly force in order to continue to perform the rescue.
 
#36
#36
therealUT said:
I cannot agree with you. What our government reports is severely under-reported. These drone strikes often result in more civilians killed than militants, and often the DoD does not record the deaths.



Any U.S. Government figures on civilian casualties from drone strikes are going to be as completely low-balled as possible; and, they do not even match up with the reparations payments that the U.S. makes to the families of those killed that the U.S. officially recognizes as civilian noncombatants.
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My mom used to say "lay with dogs you wake up with fleas". The civilians know who the terrorist are, where they are and heck most likely support them. The term "civillian" only loosely applies.
 
#37
#37
vol4eva said:
So how would you go about killing terrorists? Sadly, civilian casualties are a part of war and have been since the dawn of mankind.
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I would not go about killing terrorists. I would build better defenses in America; I would allow, and encourage, Americans to arm themselves.
 
#38
#38
hog88 said:
My mom used to say "lay with dogs you wake up with fleas". The civilians know who the terrorist are, where they are and heck most likely support them. The term "civillian" only loosely applies.
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Okay; we know who our combatants are, where they are for the most part, and we support them with taxes and elect officials that carry out foreign wars. We should be liable to attack and we can express no principled indignation at the attacks that targeted "civilians" on 9/11, because, well, that term only loosely applies when we are paying for our military and voting for officials that see fit to continue to bomb Iraq throughout the 90s, to support Iraq against Iran throughout the 80s, etc., ad nauseum.
 
#39
#39
Shouldn't a country like Pakistan be held accountable for harboring terrorist groups?
 
#41
#41
hog88 said:
My mom used to say "lay with dogs you wake up with fleas". The civilians know who the terrorist are, where they are and heck most likely support them. The term "civillian" only loosely applies.
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Ignorant statement is ignorant.
 
#42
#42
vol4eva said:
Shouldn't a country like Pakistan be held accountable for harboring terrorist groups?
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So long as a country like the U.S. is held accountable for orchestrating a military coup in Pakistan (1974, I believe; the coup placed a fervent, radical Islamist Dictator into power and discarded a very well educated, mild-mannered, and pro-equality, democratically-elected President).
 
#43
#43
therealUT said:
Okay; we know who our combatants are, where they are for the most part, and we support them with taxes and elect officials that carry out foreign wars. We should be liable to attack and we can express no principled indignation at the attacks that targeted "civilians" on 9/11, because, well, that term only loosely applies when we are paying for our military and voting for officials that see fit to continue to bomb Iraq throughout the 90s, to support Iraq against Iran throughout the 80s, etc., ad nauseum.
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I'm not getting into this with you again, I could care less how many of them we kill. Guilt by association! Yes, I believe any US citizens life is more important than any other, yes I believe we must do and go where we need to go to prevent American deaths.
 
#44
#44
hog88 said:
I'm not getting into this with you again, I could care less how many of them we kill. Guilt by association! Yes, I believe any US citizens life is more important than any other, yes I believe we must do and go where we need to go to prevent American deaths.
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This is the reason why the world hates us, what makes an American life more valuable than another life?
 
#45
#45
Burhead said:
This is the reason why the world hates us, what makes an American life more valuable than another life?
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Why do you care what the rest of the world thinks or feels? In simple terms my team (Americans) are worth more to me than any other team.

You do realize even our allies have never had our interest at heart. The few times a supposed frend has come to our aid they did have other motives.
 
#48
#48
hog88 said:
Why do you care what the rest of the world thinks or feels? In simple terms my team (Americans) are worth more to me than any other team.

You do realize even our allies have never had our interest at heart. The few times a supposed frend has come to our aid they did have other motives.
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I value all life regardless if it is American, Pakistani, Iranian, etc.
 
#50
#50
Burhead said:
So what are you suggesting? Invade Pakistan?
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No, they ***** about our drone programs yet they shelter terror groups who have killed an untold amount of their own civilians. They take billions of our tax dollars and still secretly fund groups like the Taliban. It just pisses me off.
 
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