Nothing like celebrating at a church

#77
#77
Jonesey said:
I am not an advocate of war, don't think we should be killing people, but if I were drafted would I be forced to kill even though I don't believe in it?
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Here's what the difference is to me. I personally believe war is sometimes necessary. I'm also not qualified to judge when that is, or I'd be a ground commander or some high up in the military.
I have friends over there fighting, I hear a lot of what they're telling me, not what any news org. is telling me. I personally believe we will be at war off and on until the end of time.
If I'm drafted, I don't want to go, but if I have to I will. I think the trained professionals are better at getting that job done. I think if you are against killing people, you have a CHANCE at getting out of a draft...so its merely speculation.
These people signed up, Bush didn't go get them. They volunteered to enter the military and a lot of them have volunteered to go back over there more than once.
To say those people that are over there dying is no different than a baby or a fetus being killed is pure ignorance in my opinion. That was the point I was trying to make originally.
 
#78
#78
Etownvol said:
Here's what the difference is to me. I personally believe war is sometimes necessary. I'm also not qualified to judge when that is, or I'd be a ground commander or some high up in the military.
I have friends over there fighting, I hear a lot of what they're telling me, not what any news org. is telling me. I personally believe we will be at war off and on until the end of time.
If I'm drafted, I don't want to go, but if I have to I will. I think the trained professionals are better at getting that job done. I think if you are against killing people, you have a CHANCE at getting out of a draft...so its merely speculation.
These people signed up, Bush didn't go get them. They volunteered to enter the military and a lot of them have volunteered to go back over there more than once.
To say those people that are over there dying is no different than a baby or a fetus being killed is pure ignorance in my opinion. That was the point I was trying to make originally.
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So just to clarify, You are for war, but against abortion, even though you just said there is no difference between killing in war and killing an unborn child?

I'm really trying to understand where you are coming from on this one.
 
#79
#79
Jonesey said:
So just to clarify, You are for war, but against abortion, even though you just said there is no difference between killing in war and killing an unborn child?

I'm really trying to understand where you are coming from on this one.
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I'm against abortion.
I'm for war sometimes, depending on the situation. I think it's just inevitable. I base that on scripture. There is a HUGE difference in killing in war and killing an unborn child. I thought I was clear on that, sorry.
 
#80
#80
Etownvol said:
The fact that some people compare slaughtering of innocent, babies that have no choice in the matter to the men & women who sign up for the MILITARY knowing they're signing up with the possibility to go to war is beyond me. If you're for abortion, be for it. If you're against it, be against it. Don't go equating abortion to the killing of troops in the war.
As far as the Bible goes, God has ordained wars throughout scripture. He fought with his people in some instances...so you can't say that abortion and war are the same thing in the sense that they're both senseless killings. But some people still will.
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Etownvol said:
I'm against abortion.
I'm for war sometimes, depending on the situation. I think it's just inevitable. I base that on scripture. There is a HUGE difference in killing in war and killing an unborn child. I thought I was clear on that, sorry.
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The God of the Bible is pretty clearly fine with the slaughter of innocent children too, at least sometimes. Check out Numbers 31.
 
#81
#81
Vercingetorix said:
The God of the Bible is pretty clearly fine with the slaughter of innocent children too, at least sometimes. Check out Numbers 31.
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the entire premise of taking over the promise land via force is tough to reconcile with much of the New Testament teachings.

The preachy folks don't like to admit that there is any contradiction in the Bible, but it's littered with it.
 
#82
#82
BigPapaVol said:
the entire premise of taking over the promise land via force is tough to reconcile with much of the New Testament teachings.

The preachy folks don't like to admit that there is any contradiction in the Bible, but it's littered with it.
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There's also a verse somewhere in the back half of the Old Testament in which God threatens to punish some group of sinners by ripping their pregnant women open. You don't see that one in the "Miracle of Life" literature very often either.

I get that abortion is a convoluted and difficult issue; I can absolutely see why people might think it's the equivalent of, say, second degree manslaughter. What I don't get is how people justify their opposition to it with the Bible.
 
#83
#83
Well listen guys, I respect your opinions. I've read Numbers 31, and I know there's a lot more to it, like the events leading up to it. It's kind of detailed and I'm really not going to spend all the time it would take to break it down and make it make sense to you. I'm not a preacher, and Big Papa Vol, I'm certainly not trying to be preachy. I don't believe contradiction in the Bible, but that's my opinion, and I'm not going to get into a religious debate here. That wasn't my intention. I was just expressing that I don't personally believe in abortion, and I understand that war is inevitable and sometimes necessary. I don't like it, but there is always going to be war off and on...I hope that helped. If Vercingetorix or Big Papa Vol want to further discuss this Numbers 31 thing, or the contradictions in the Bible, then PM me. Otherwise, I'm staying out of the politics forum I think....not really my strong point.
 
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#84
#84
Etownvol said:
Well listen guys, I respect your opinions. I've read Numbers 31, and I know there's a lot more to it, like the events leading up to it. It's kind of detailed and I'm really not going to spend all the time it would take to break it down and make it make sense to you. I'm not a preacher, and Big Papa Vol, I'm certainly not trying to be preachy. I don't believe contradiction in the Bible, but that's my opinion, and I'm not going to get into a religious debate here. That wasn't my intention. I was just expressing that I don't personally believe in abortion, and I understand that war is inevitable and sometimes necessary. I don't like it, but there is always going to be war off and on...I hope that helped. If Vercingetorix or Big Papa Vol want to further discuss this Numbers 31 thing, or the contradictions in the Bible, then PM me. Otherwise, I'm staying out of the politics forum I think....not really my strong point.
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Just to be clear -- I'm not attacking either religious belief or opposition to abortion; what I object to is the conflation of the two, and the way that that mishmash has come to dominate American politics.
 
#85
#85
Vercingetorix said:
Just to be clear -- I'm not attacking either religious belief or opposition to abortion; what I object to is the conflation of the two, and the way that that mishmash has come to dominate American politics.
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I understand, it's cool. I just hate to get into religious/political debates...not that we were, but I didn't want it to get to that point.
:hi:
 
#86
#86
hatvol96 said:
It would probably serve you well to save the sermon for somebody who cares.
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H:birgits_giggle:

Whether I agree with your attitude or not does not diminish the fact your posts are genuine gold. I will say I generally like to see what you have to say because you are a smart man. No doubt about it.

My apologies for my confrontational posts towards you.
:salute:
 
#87
#87
rjd970 said:
We can play this game.

I guess you have never attributed God to sparing somebody's life? Survive car wreck? Remission of cancer? The pious are more than willing to credit God with stepping in during "miraculous" events. If he is willing and able to do that than he should be willing and able to stop the innocent dying of unborn babies through miscarriages. I saw a headline once after the Tsunami that said "Man attributes God for saving his life". The funny thing was on the same newspaper article another headline read "10,000 Die". Oh the narcissim of the saved.
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Nature happens, don't be so stupid as to try an equate a natural end to someone sticking a fork through someone's head. Please try harder than this.
 
#89
#89
DowntownVol said:
I hereby nominate the above for 2008 Volnation Ignorant Post of the Year.
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how is that? Are you saying that abortion isn't a convenient after-the-fact birth control method to folks like those at Planned Parenthood?

Mind you, I don't oppose abortion.
 
#90
#90
BigPapaVol said:
how is that? Are you saying that abortion isn't a convenient after-the-fact birth control method to folks like those at Planned Parenthood?

Mind you, I don't oppose abortion.
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Abortion isn't "convenient" for anyone. It's physically and emotionally traumatic, it's painful, and oh yeah, it's not exactly free, nor is it covered by any health insurance I'm aware of.

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, by the way.
 
#91
#91
DowntownVol said:
Abortion isn't "convenient" for anyone. It's physically and emotionally traumatic, it's painful, and oh yeah, it's not exactly free, nor is it covered by any health insurance I'm aware of.

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, by the way.
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OK. Inconvenient birth control, but de facto birth control nonetheless.
 
#92
#92
Jonesey said:
So just to clarify, You are for war, but against abortion, even though you just said there is no difference between killing in war and killing an unborn child?

I'm really trying to understand where you are coming from on this one.
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The child has no voice, doesn't get to make the choice to be involved.

If you choose to not participate in war you have options, a baby doesn't.
 
#93
#93
Vercingetorix said:
There's also a verse somewhere in the back half of the Old Testament in which God threatens to punish some group of sinners by ripping their pregnant women open. You don't see that one in the "Miracle of Life" literature very often either.

I get that abortion is a convoluted and difficult issue; I can absolutely see why people might think it's the equivalent of, say, second degree manslaughter. What I don't get is how people justify their opposition to it with the Bible.
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I would consider myself Christian but completely understand there are many that are not. I do not support abortion but I have come to understand that I do not and should not control what choices another makes.

That being said I believe my tax dollars should not go to organizations like planned parenthood, they are an advocacy group for abortion and they use my tax dollars to advance their agenda and subsidize abortions. I believe that is wrong.
 
#95
#95
DowntownVol said:
Abortion isn't "convenient" for anyone. It's physically and emotionally traumatic, it's painful, and oh yeah, it's not exactly free, nor is it covered by any health insurance I'm aware of.

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, by the way.
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Maybe but it has become a very popular means of birth control by irresponsible people. That cannot be denied.
 
#97
#97
bigtime said:
War and Murder are completely different things. Your gonna come back with how Iraq is murder but its all perspective
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That's the point though. War and Murder are not wholly separate entities. Just because you believe you're right, and someone else is wrong, does not give you any more mustard to kill them with. Wars are significantly more violent, impact innocent people, and destroy family lives. To try and separate deliberate killing of humans from the deliberate killing of humans (if we accept abortion logic) is a logical fallacy. We cannot have our cake and eat it to in a religious debate where our own religion tends to contradict its self based on readings of the old testament or the new testament.
 
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