NSA spying on millions in the USA

[smokedog#3]

no i don't see where it is going :biggrin2:

 

[dan4vols]

no i don't see where it is going :biggrin2:

Smoke you will when the worst happens.

 

[rockydoc]

Last I checked, the 9-11 families weren't happy with Bush at all.

:dunno: REFERENCE?????























Since 9-11, he has dropped a few bombs on Afghanistan and put some soldiers there after Bin Laden escaped and then headed straight to Iraq. Sure, there might be some Al quaeda in Iraq now, but that's only because Iraq is now a breeding ground for terrorists of all affiliations.

I also find it funny how the telephone numbers are such a big deal, yet our Northern and Southern borders are still wide open. Who needs phone calls when you can cross over into America and just meet in person?

I'll give Bush some credit for finally getting some initiative about this border thing though. At least he's finally thinking about committing some of the National Guard to try and control it a little. Too bad it took something like a low approval ratings and upcoming mid term elections to get the ball rolling.

As for ZERO attacks on American soil, that's true and I'm grateful for it. However, it's more to do with the patience of Al Queada than the effectiveness of Bush and "War on Terror"... The terrorists have proven that time is not a factor in their attacks, they're more concerned about doing it right than doing it quickly.

Al Quadea is now dispersed thoughout the world, I would hardly call attacking a country that didn't attack us "taking it to them"... :twocents:

 

[volinbham]

I cite the Katrina storm...look how quickly the whole region collapsed, no infrastructure...nothing...hysteria and crime took over.

I would hardly consider downtown New Orleans as a "whole region".

If you think about it, it was quite the opposite, a huge area (gulf region) was without power, communications, access yet hysteria and crime did not take over. It was isolated to New Orleans. Hysteria and crime does not characterize the vast majority of area hit by Katrina.

 

[volinbham]

As for ZERO attacks on American soil, that's true and I'm grateful for it. However, it's more to do with the patience of Al Queada than the effectiveness of Bush and "War on Terror"... The terrorists have proven that time is not a factor in their attacks, they're more concerned about doing it right than doing it quickly.

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that changes in policy since 9/11 might have actually had some impact?

Go back and examine the comments from every terrorism expert following 9/11 -- virtually all predicted further strikes against the US in the near term (less than 5 years). It's revisionist history to say that we haven't been hit because Al Quaeda didn't want to hit us again until at least 5 more years.

I don't see how anyone can even compare what the Bush administration has done to limit the effectiveness of Al Quaeda compared to the previous administration.

 

[OWB]

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that changes in policy since 9/11 might have actually had some impact?

Go back and examine the comments from every terrorism expert following 9/11 -- virtually all predicted further strikes against the US in the near term (less than 5 years). It's revisionist history to say that we haven't been hit because Al Quaeda didn't want to hit us again until at least 5 more years.

I don't see how anyone can even compare what the Bush administration has done to limit the effectiveness of Al Quaeda compared to the previous administration.

I have no problems acknowledging that some changes might have curbed a few planned attacks, but we just don't know for sure do we?

Airport security has improven some, but people are still at risk. Airports all over the country are still failing miserably when it comes to being tested. I read where something like 30% of small weapons still get through the gates. They have made improvements at the airports though, you do have to take your shoes off now.

The CIA continues to be a bloody mess. Goss quits and Foggo is now being investigated along with others that we don't know about yet. Is there any other time in the history of the CIA where a high ranking CIA official was involved in a criminal investigation? No. How is our Central Intelligence Agency supposed to gather intel when the guys at the top can't even keep their jobs and do them properly? I certainly don't have any confidence in them right now.

Port security is still nowhere close to what it should be.

We still haven't found Bin Laden. We screwed the pooch when he was in Tora Bora and allowed him to escape Afganistan before we even bombed the region through poor planning.

Most of our resources are focusing on Iraq instead of Al Queada.

And the list goes on and on.

So I'll acknowledge that changes made have prevented another attack if you acknowledge that it all could be blind luck so far. Because there's not proof either way.

As for listening to and tracking phone calls through the NSA, I'm not against it. I'm against the manner that they went about it. As of right now, it's still against the law. You know why didn't try and get Congress to change the law and go through the legal channels? Because they didn't think that Congress would approve it.

I'm one for the line of thinking that if you give the government permission to do things like that without warrants or anything, that power will eventually be abused for something else.

Besides, if we're having to resort to tracking the phone calls of the millions of Americans, we've already lost the war on terror. I'm pretty sure that terrorist have figured out that using phones could be dangerous to their missions by now anyway.

By the way, whatever happened to our color coded security warnings? Funny how things disappear after a reelection. Have no fear though, it will be back for mid terms along gay marriage/adoption and some of the other greatest hits.....gas prices will come down too, but we don't have control over that right? It will be magical.

I also don't think that it's fair to compare which administration has done better. The circumstances are totally different. Al Quaeda made George W. Bush when it pulled off one of the worst attacks on America since Pearl Harbor on his watch. That's a little more severe than a small bomb being set off in 1993. The reactions are definitely going to be different depending on the size of the attack.

 

[rockydoc]

Last I checked, the 9-11 families weren't happy with Bush at all.

Since 9-11, he has dropped a few bombs on Afghanistan and put some soldiers there after Bin Laden escaped and then headed straight to Iraq. Sure, there might be some Al quaeda in Iraq now, but that's only because Iraq is now a breeding ground for terrorists of all affiliations.

I also find it funny how the telephone numbers are such a big deal, yet our Northern and Southern borders are still wide open. Who needs phone calls when you can cross over into America and just meet in person?

I'll give Bush some credit for finally getting some initiative about this border thing though. At least he's finally thinking about committing some of the National Guard to try and control it a little. Too bad it took something like a low approval ratings and upcoming mid term elections to get the ball rolling.

As for ZERO attacks on American soil, that's true and I'm grateful for it. However, it's more to do with the patience of Al Queada than the effectiveness of Bush and "War on Terror"... The terrorists have proven that time is not a factor in their attacks, they're more concerned about doing it right than doing it quickly.

Al Quadea is now dispersed thoughout the world, I would hardly call attacking a country that didn't attack us "taking it to them"... :twocents:

Our forces have been involved in the Phillipines plus we have covert special forces tracking down the bad guys inside Pakistan, with the tacit blessing of their goverment. Also we are getting some cooperation from countries like Yemen. :gun:

 

[OWB]

we have covert special forces tracking down the bad guys inside Pakistan, :gun:

I would hope so.

 

[rockydoc]

after Bin Laden escaped and then headed straight to Iraq.

Bin Laden went to Iraq???? Now I know why Bush sent our troops to that country! :bump3:


















I also find it funny how the telephone numbers are such a big deal, yet our Northern and Southern borders are still wide open. Who needs phone calls when you can cross over into America and just meet in person?

I'll give Bush some credit for finally getting some initiative about this border thing though. At least he's finally thinking about committing some of the National Guard to try and control it a little. Too bad it took something like a low approval ratings and upcoming mid term elections to get the ball rolling.

As for ZERO attacks on American soil, that's true and I'm grateful for it. However, it's more to do with the patience of Al Queada than the effectiveness of Bush and "War on Terror"... The terrorists have proven that time is not a factor in their attacks, they're more concerned about doing it right than doing it quickly.

Al Quadea is now dispersed thoughout the world, I would hardly call attacking a country that didn't attack us "taking it to them"... :twocents:

 

[OWB]

Bin Laden went to Iraq???? Now I know why Bush sent our troops to that country!

Is that you George?? :biggrin2:

Just in case you weren't joking. I said that Bin Laden escaped and then WE headed straight to Iraq.

 

[rockydoc]

Is that you George?? :biggrin2:

Just in case you weren't joking. I said that Bin Laden escaped and then

WE headed

straight to Iraq.

What unit were you in OWB? How many other members of Volnation were or is in Iraq. Please PM U-T and tellhim the best resturants in Bagdad.

 

[OWB]

straight to Iraq.

What unit were you in OWB? How many other members of Volnation were or is in Iraq. Please PM U-T and tellhim the best resturants in Bagdad.

I would have said "they" if I thought you could figure out that I was talking about the U.S.

 

[volinbham]

Just a few points in response:

1) It could be dumb luck that we haven't been hit but given that AQ has been seriously disrupted and dispersed I would say we had something to do with that. While UBL has not been caught, his operational effectiveness (and stable base for operations) has been seriously hampered.

2) It was not just a little bombing in 1993. AQ bombed US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 and the US Cole in 2000. The WTC in 2001.

Do the math -- AQ under UBL really got going in 1989. He was bopping around the Middle East including Sudan where he was kicked out in 1996 and moved operations to Afghanistan. After setting up in Afghanistan they attacked US facilities 4 times (2 in 1998, 1 in 2000 and 1 in 2001). Further, since we've tightened up security, they've hit Spain and thought to have been behind the London attacks.

In short, the "AQ likes to take their time" doesn't hold much water.

3) Related to #2. No US facilities have been hit by AQ since 9/11. They've only attacked us where we have engaged them (e.g. Afghanistan and Iraq).

4) The wiretapping as described so far has not been shown to be illegal. If it is found to be illegal, I'll be right there with you saying that those the broke the law need to face the consequences. The gathering of phone call records is not only not illegal but common place. If you do a Google search on "call data records" you'll find services where you or I can buy this information!

5) Related to #5 above. There's a Catch-22 with getting Congress to change laws. Revealing the operational nature of the programs through public hearings and to 535 (or however many) congressional members plus their staffs is not feasible and greatly reduce the effectiveness of the programs. As it stands now, Congress has been briefed on these operations and has not raised a stink until they become public. Even Diane Feinstein (no fan of the Bush Admin) has been supportive of the wire tapping program.

Back to the original point -- my money's on the side that says these programs have been effective. Is more security needed? Of course but we are much further along towards those ends under this admin than under the previous.

 

[smokedog#3]

just because it is not illegal, i guess that makes it alright. right bham. :bad:

 

[dan4vols]

Gawd I miss football....seems its the only point of issue we all seem to somewhat agree on. We get on anything else and everyone wants to view it on their own view through the paper towel tube and what isnt in that view is argued like the world is flat or is it round. None of us know all the big picture facts, although some here seem to be in possession of a lot of them. I think what makes the American political front seem such a mess is no one including GWB is not only in it for #1 but can't see the whole big picture, just his little view through the paper towel tube. What worries me is how long can this go on before something truly horrific happens, no one has any answers to how it happened, or solutions to fix it? At the end of the day we're all at the mercy of someone else's decisions and that scares the hell outta me every time I read a newspaper or catch the evening news.

 

[volinbham]

just because it is not illegal, i guess that makes it alright. right bham. :bad:

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. :crazy:

I was responding to OWB's statement that these activities were not legal.

 

[OWB]

Do the math -- AQ under UBL really got going in 1989. He was bopping around the Middle East including Sudan where he was kicked out in 1996 and moved operations to Afghanistan. After setting up in Afghanistan they attacked US facilities 4 times (2 in 1998, 1 in 2000 and 1 in 2001). Further, since we've tightened up security, they've hit Spain and thought to have been behind the London attacks.

They've done more than that since we've tightened up security and started our war on terror.

Shoe bomber incident on Dec 23 2001 (even though he couldn't light the laces on account of having pissed on them before the flight.
April 11 2002, Tunisian synagogue blast
Oct 12 2002, nightclub bombings in Bali
Nov 28 2002, Israeli targets in Kenya
May 12th 2002, Dozens killed in Saudi Arabia
May 16th 2002, Morocco suicide attacks
Dec 15th 2003, Suicide bombers hit Turkish synagogues
Dec 20th 2003, 2 bomb attacks on British interests in Turkey
March 11th 2004, the Madrid bombers attack Spain..
July 7th 2005, suicide bombers attack London..

Not to mention a few smaller incidents that I didn't feel like typing out. Sure, that's not on American soil, but shows how much we really disrupted them...not much. I will admit that things seemed to have tapered off a bit. I hope that trend keeps growing.

The wiretapping as described so far has not been shown to be illegal. If it is found to be illegal, I'll be right there with you saying that those the broke the law need to face the consequences. The gathering of phone call records is not only not illegal but common place. If you do a Google search on "call data records" you'll find services where you or I can buy this information!

According to EFF, it is illegal for telecom companies to supply customer calling details to the NSA unless they follow established legal procedures to obtain a warrant.

The law doesn't make it illegal for the government to ask for such records. Rather, it makes it illegal for phone companies to divulge them. If it was legal, then Quest would have turned over their records. By not doing so, they're going to avoid law suits that are hitting or going to hit the other phone companies.

The Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986 was passed when cell phones and the Internet were emerging as new forms of communication. Section 2702 of the law says these providers of ``electronic communications . . . shall not knowingly divulge a record or other information pertaining to a subscriber or customer . . . to any government entity.''

It is simply illegal for a telephone company to turn over caller records without some form of legal process, such as a court order or a subpoena. That's what I'm talking about when I talk about illegal.

 

[volinbham]

They've done more than that since we've tightened up security and started our war on terror.

Shoe bomber incident on Dec 23 2001 (even though he couldn't light the laces on account of having pissed on them before the flight.
April 11 2002, Tunisian synagogue blast
Oct 12 2002, nightclub bombings in Bali
Nov 28 2002, Israeli targets in Kenya
May 12th 2002, Dozens killed in Saudi Arabia
May 16th 2002, Morocco suicide attacks
Dec 15th 2003, Suicide bombers hit Turkish synagogues
Dec 20th 2003, 2 bomb attacks on British interests in Turkey
March 11th 2004, the Madrid bombers attack Spain..
July 7th 2005, suicide bombers attack London..

Not to mention a few smaller incidents that I didn't feel like typing out. Sure, that's not on American soil, but shows how much we really disrupted them...not much. I will admit that things seemed to have tapered off a bit. I hope that trend keeps growing.
According to EFF, it is illegal for telecom companies to supply customer calling details to the NSA unless they follow established legal procedures to obtain a warrant.

The law doesn't make it illegal for the government to ask for such records. Rather, it makes it illegal for phone companies to divulge them. If it was legal, then Quest would have turned over their records. By not doing so, they're going to avoid law suits that are hitting or going to hit the other phone companies.

The Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986 was passed when cell phones and the Internet were emerging as new forms of communication. Section 2702 of the law says these providers of ``electronic communications . . . shall not knowingly divulge a record or other information pertaining to a subscriber or customer . . . to any government entity.''

It is simply illegal for a telephone company to turn over caller records without some form of legal process, such as a court order or a subpoena. That's what I'm talking about when I talk about illegal.

My first point was that AQ hasn't been successful in hitting us. They were hitting people all over the globe pre 9/11 and post 9/11. The difference so far is that they haven't been able to hit us (or interests) since. I'm not saying it's all due to policy changes but clearly those things have helped.

I've been hearing all kinds of opinions regarding laws/loopholes on the phone records thing and at this point, there is not conclusive evidence that it is legal or illegal. Since some lawsuits have been filed why don't we wait and see what the courts say?

 

[OWB]

I've been hearing all kinds of opinions regarding laws/loopholes on the phone records thing and at this point, there is not conclusive evidence that it is legal or illegal. Since some lawsuits have been filed why don't we wait and see what the courts say?

Sounds like a plan.

 

[GAVol]

See, I knew cooler heads would prevail . . .Glad that's settled.

Next thread

 

[OWB]

See, I knew cooler heads would prevail . . .Glad that's settled.

Next thread

I'm fighting this cause for people like you. Why should you be overly worried about calling all your 900 numbers? It's just not fair. :bad:

 

[GAVol]

I'm fighting this cause for people like you. Why should you be overly worried about calling all your 900 numbers? It's just not fair. :bad:

Thanks man . . . If the NSA ever starts collecting information on magazine subscriptions, I'll have your back.

 

[OWB]

Most excellent. Now what are we going to talk about?

 

[GAVol]

Uhhh . . . I had a ham sandwich for lunch and it's raining outside.

 

[OWB]

Hmm, I haven't had lunch and it's a nice day here.