Obama Budget Speech

#101
#101
utvolpj said:
utterly ridiculous but not surprising
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Ridiculous to deny actually. I can tell you haven't gone through any funding rounds before.

The newly rich in 2005:

Inheritance: 69%
Marriage: 4%
Crime: 26%
 
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#102
#102
Volst53 said:
Luck follows on the coat tail of hard work
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These guys (as should your experience in the real world outside the back door) disagree:

farmer_and_tradesman_mechanic_handshake_jpg194.jpg
 
#103
#103
utgibbs said:
Ridiculous to deny actually. I can tell you haven't gone through any funding rounds before.

The newly rich in 2005:

Inheritance: 69%
Marriage: 4%
Crime: 26%
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what? only 1% of "rich" people earned their wealth legally? hard to believe.
 
#104
#104
utgibbs said:
These guys (as should your experience in the real world outside the back door) disagree:

farmer_and_tradesman_mechanic_handshake_jpg194.jpg
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working hard and taking a chance to better your station are 2 different things. No one has claimed you'll get rich turning a wrench all day

kev20 said:
what? only 1% of "rich" people earned their wealth legally? hard to believe.
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clearly you're not using your backdoor correctly
 
#105
#105
utvolpj said:
working hard and taking a chance to better your station are 2 different things. No one has claimed you'll get rich turning a wrench all day



clearly you're not using your backdoor correctly
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Exactly. No reason why you should benefit from a gift or marriage, one of which you have no control over, the other only in half.
 
#106
#106
BeecherVol said:
Exactly. No reason why you should benefit from a gift or marriage, one of which you have no control over, the other only in half.
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But the argument was working hard makes you rich....

It doesn't. As the real world outside the back door clearly demonstrates.

As I said, it is the exception, not the rule.
 
#110
#110
utgibbs said:
But the argument was working hard makes you rich....

It doesn't. As the real world outside the back door clearly demonstrates.

As I said, it is the exception, not the rule.
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No it wasn't. The "argument" (which seems to be what your seeking) is that you have the opportunity to work hard and be successful. Your criteria for working hard must be very different from mine. It is not limited to the "blue collar" world that I know well. Unless you buy into the idea that your born is this country with no opportunity.
 
#111
#111
BeecherVol said:
No it wasn't. The "argument" (which seems to be what your seeking) is that you have the opportunity to work hard and be successful. Your criteria for working hard must be very different from mine. It is not limited to the "blue collar" world that I know well. Unless you buy into the idea that your born is this country with no opportunity.
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Plenty of opportunity, but the goverment has to hand wrap and give it to you in a basket. A man just can't have the drive and the will to make something of himself.
 
#112
#112
droski said:
Bull****
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Maybe the single year thing is a trick? If you go from not having much money to having lots of it in that short a time period it makes sense that some kind of windfall took place.

OTOH the idea that you could just go out and grab 100,000 different "rich" people and have the numbers look anything like that is, as you say, bovine feces.
 
#113
#113
droski said:
Bull****
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Amen 70% of new millionaires in America are first generation millionaires. Read the millionaire next door and maybe learn to manage your money gibbs. If poor people would quit buying lottery tickets and cigarettes they would get out of "poverty" even though 98% of people in poverty own a television. Its like blaming a gym for making people fat or in shape. Capitalism gives us the ability to change our fate if you work hard enough. Likewise, fat people like to blame their weight on circumstances if they would shut up and just do what it takes to lose weight they would change. Its not an information or capitalism problem its a personal responsibility problem.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#114
#114
DefenseisDesire said:
Capitalism gives us the ability to change our fate if you work hard enough. Posted via VolNation Mobile
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I agree with this basic sentiment, but point out some inherent shortfalls in what I think is an oversimplistic view of the matter.

1) even if 70 % of millionaires do not come from millionaire families, you have to admit that coming from certain upbringings gives a person a much better shot at it.

2) The concept of inherited wealth seems fundamentally unfair, but it is of course only natural as human beings that we want to pass on whatever we might have accumulated to our loved ones. Its not going anywhere, though objectively it does deny on its face that capitalism proportionately rewards hard work.

3) I don't know about you, but I don't want to be in a system that ignores human suffering. I am fine with the argument that people who work hard and save should enjoy that. I am not fine with the notion that we ought to move to a voucher system for old people's health, even though we know it to be inadequate, whilst we cut taxes for the wealthiest even more.

4) I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to live in a system that promotes education and maybe even a little bit more education for children coming from impoverished backgrounds, in order to increase the efficiency with which capitalism can reward hard work.

To work hard and be productive, you need the right tools. Sure, some people squander their opportunities and I don't feel sorry for them. But, the said irony is that people from some backgrounds just need better tools and the folks at the top don't seem to want them to have them.
 
#115
#115
I have a family member who is a CEO of a small corporation and does very well for himself. I asked how does one get to that position...his answer was aptitude, hard work, and luck.

As much as fundamental capitalists don't want to admit, luck plays a part in someone being rich. Now, that said, you certainly can't get there without intelligence and hard work too. But I think it is false to say hard work and intelligence alone will get you to that point.
 
#116
#116
no one denies luck as a component but to say it's all a blessing or luck is crazy. I wouldn't even say luck is as big a factor as timing
 
#117
#117
lawgator1 said:
I agree with this basic sentiment, but point out some inherent shortfalls in what I think is an oversimplistic view of the matter.

1) even if 70 % of millionaires do not come from millionaire families, you have to admit that coming from certain upbringings gives a person a much better shot at it.

2) The concept of inherited wealth seems fundamentally unfair, but it is of course only natural as human beings that we want to pass on whatever we might have accumulated to our loved ones. Its not going anywhere, though objectively it does deny on its face that capitalism proportionately rewards hard work.

3) I don't know about you, but I don't want to be in a system that ignores human suffering. I am fine with the argument that people who work hard and save should enjoy that. I am not fine with the notion that we ought to move to a voucher system for old people's health, even though we know it to be inadequate, whilst we cut taxes for the wealthiest even more.

4) I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to live in a system that promotes education and maybe even a little bit more education for children coming from impoverished backgrounds, in order to increase the efficiency with which capitalism can reward hard work.

To work hard and be productive, you need the right tools. Sure, some people squander their opportunities and I don't feel sorry for them. But, the said irony is that people from some backgrounds just need better tools and the folks at the top don't seem to want them to have them.
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I would define the last comments by the bold above.
 
#118
#118
utvolpj said:
no one denies luck as a component but to say it's all a blessing or luck is crazy. I wouldn't even say luck is as big a factor as timing
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Not saying it is all blessing or luck. But simple intelligence and hard work alone doesn't work either. I understand that the market drives what CEOs get paid...but counting the luck (timing, whatever) component into it makes it hard to stomach those guys getting paid 1000x what the desk jockeys do. They are not just smarter and harder working than everyone underneath them.
 
#119
#119
rjd970 said:
Not saying it is all blessing or luck. But simple intelligence and hard work alone doesn't work either. I understand that the market drives what CEOs get paid...but counting the luck (timing, whatever) component into it makes it hard to stomach those guys getting paid 1000x what the desk jockeys do. They are not just smarter and harder working than everyone underneath them.
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you still have to put yourself in position to advance. Luck is a small part of that. You don't go from desk jockey to CEO because you did well for 6 months
 
#122
#122
rjd970 said:
Not saying it is all blessing or luck. But simple intelligence and hard work alone doesn't work either. I understand that the market drives what CEOs get paid...but counting the luck (timing, whatever) component into it makes it hard to stomach those guys getting paid 1000x what the desk jockeys do. They are not just smarter and harder working than everyone underneath them.
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this is at the heart of my bewilderment - why do people concern themselves so much with what other people make? I certainly don't begrudge the higher-ups at my job for their earnings. they make the tough decisions that I don't have to.
 
#123
#123
utvolpj said:
you still have to put yourself in position to advance. Luck is a small part of that. You don't go from desk jockey to CEO because you did well for 6 months
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What about doing well for 5 years? 10 years? I bet there is very little separating the CEO from the top 5% performers of a company (generally speaking). They are all hard workers and very capable. Something is separating that person from the rest, and that something is accounting for a substantial amount of more money he/she is making.

I get your point, but you are essentially saying networking and timing is worth 100s, sometimes 1000s, of times more money then being dedicated and smart. JMO, I find that hard to stomach. These guys aren't Gods of the business world, and for all we know, somebody else in the company could be doing a better job, they just didn't kiss the right arse.
 
#125
#125
kev20 said:
this is at the heart of my bewilderment - why do people concern themselves so much with what other people make? I certainly don't begrudge the higher-ups at my job for their earnings. they make the tough decisions that I don't have to.
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I've wondered the same.

Why are people worried about what other people make, and why do so many feel they're entitled to a share of it?
 
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