Obama Budget Speech

#126
#126
kev20 said:
this is at the heart of my bewilderment - why do people concern themselves so much with what other people make? I certainly don't begrudge the higher-ups at my job for their earnings. they make the tough decisions that I don't have to.
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I don't begrudge them either. But when somebody is getting a 3% raise in this economy while the CEO enjoys a 150%, people start to wonder if they are really worth that. Are they really 150% smarter and more hard working?
 
#127
#127
TheDeeble said:
I've wondered the same.

Why are people worried about what other people make, and why do so many feel they're entitled to a share of it?
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Personally, I don't have the entitlement mentality, just wondering how one gets to that point where they make the decisions that the market justifies that kind of money.
 
#128
#128
rjd970 said:
What about doing well for 5 years? 10 years? I bet there is very little separating the CEO from the top 5% performers of a company (generally speaking). They are all hard workers and very capable. Something is separating that person from the rest, and that something is accounting for a substantial amount of more money he/she is making.

I get your point, but you are essentially saying networking and timing is worth 100s, sometimes 1000s, of times more money then being dedicated and smart. JMO, I find that hard to stomach. These guys aren't Gods of the business world, and for all we know, somebody else in the company could be doing a better job, they just didn't kiss the right arse.
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dedicated and smart without the drive to the top means nothing. I work with plenty of people who are both but really enjoy what they are doing and don't want mgmt responsibilities.

I can only really speak of people in my company but if you do well and want to move up there will be a spot. The only catch is it could require more wait time if the spot above isn't open. The ones who go above and beyond are rewarded. Do they all become CEO? Of course not but the path is there if you want to try.

and why just call out the CEO? Are the people who moan about the salaries the regional mgrs, VP or execs of the company? People really need to evaluate what they're doing first and find the difference

rjd970 said:
I don't begrudge them either. But when somebody is getting a 3% raise in this economy while the CEO enjoys a 150%, people start to wonder if they are really worth that. Are they really 150% smarter and more hard working?
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again it's most likely because they don't have a clue what his job does or what he did to get there
 
#129
#129
Sometimes we seem to get caught arguing the margins a bit in things like this. Getting lathered up about what some tiny fraction of the population makes (entertainment/sports stars, big money CEO's, etc) doesn't seem like a particularly useful approach IMO.

Is anybody going to really argue that the overwhelming majority of people that have "done well for themselves" have done so primarily through taking whatever talents they had and putting in the time/effort to have it pay off?
 
#130
#130
rjd970 said:
I don't begrudge them either. But when somebody is getting a 3% raise in this economy while the CEO enjoys a 150%, people start to wonder if they are really worth that. Are they really 150% smarter and more hard working?
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Yes
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#131
#131
utvolpj said:
dedicated and smart without the drive to the top means nothing. I work with plenty of people who are both but really enjoy what they are doing and don't want mgmt responsibilities.

I can only really speak of people in my company but if you do well and want to move up there will be a spot. The only catch is it could require more wait time if the spot above isn't open. The ones who go above and beyond are rewarded. Do they all become CEO? Of course not but the path is there if you want to try.

I disagree with most of this. A spot, or path there simply isn't in the works for some, no matter how hard they work or how smart they are. It just isn't true.

and why just call out the CEO? Are the people who moan about the salaries the regional mgrs, VP or execs of the company? People really need to evaluate what they're doing first and find the difference

The CEOs are the one at the top making 1000s of times more than the average worker, and in fact, the separation between them is getting greater every year. What is changing? What forces in the market are driving this. Let me be clear, I am not complaining or begrudging, but mostly trying to understand the market forces and how these individuals took advantage of those forces. What makes them special?

again it's most likely because they don't have a clue what his job does or what he did to get there

OK, so let's hear it. What did he do or what is his job now that is 1000sx more valuable than the worker who desinged the actaul product the company is selling?
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see bold.
 
#133
#133
BeecherVol said:
No it wasn't. The "argument" (which seems to be what your seeking) is that you have the opportunity to work hard and be successful. Your criteria for working hard must be very different from mine. It is not limited to the "blue collar" world that I know well. Unless you buy into the idea that your born is this country with no opportunity.
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I'm not seeking an argument. I'm trying to put the record straight. If there is an argument, it is because some beliefs just don't jive with the real world outside the back door.

As even the OECD has reported, there are greater opportunities for upward mobility in Europe than here.

The mythology needs correcting. Some (droski) would say "Move over there!" but this is simply being sold out to the man.

Wouldn't it be better to correct this state of affairs instead of parroting squawk box or whatever?
 
#134
#134
rjd970 said:
The CEOs are the one at the top making 1000s of times more than the average worker, and in fact, the separation between them is getting greater every year. What is changing? What forces in the market are driving this. Let me be clear, I am not complaining or begrudging, but mostly trying to understand the market forces and how these individuals took advantage of those forces. What makes them special?
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as the companies make more money the ones as the top get rewarded. Who has a bigger effect on the bottom line- the CEO or the inside sales guy? Is that making the worker's salary lower because he is making more? I know my salary has more than tripled since I started 11yrs ago. I don't want to be the CEO but I know what to do to increase my pay. Personally I may look at our CEO's pay once a year and that's because google sends me the article. I honestly don't care


rjd970 said:
OK, so let's hear it. What did he do or what is his job now that is 1000sx more valuable than the worker who desinged the actaul product the company is selling?
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different types of employees. If the guy designed a top product then I doubt he's hurting for money. I also doubt he's the type who is clamoring to manage a huge group of diverse people
 
#136
#136
hndog609 said:
Is anybody going to really argue that the overwhelming majority of people that have "done well for themselves" have done so primarily through taking whatever talents they had and putting in the time/effort to have it pay off?
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what would you attribute it to? The majority of successful people I know have worked their tails off and are also very smart

utgibbs said:
As even the OECD has reported, there are greater opportunities for upward mobility in Europe than here.
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and how do they actually calculate these "opportunities"?
 
#137
#137
utgibbs said:
You boys are showing your desperation.

I'm not sure how it is counter-intuitive.
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What am I desperate about? I've mostly just been browsing this thread. Please explain.


It's counter-intuitive because you used the term "new rich," and inheritance is clearly wealth that had already been previously gathered and attained by someone else, and then passed on. "Old money," so to speak.
 
#138
#138
utvolpj said:
what would you attribute it to? The majority of successful people I know have worked their tails off and are also very smart
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???
Did you misread what I said? Your post seems to oppose mine in tone while making basically the same observation.
 
#141
#141
utvolpj said:
as the companies make more money the ones as the top get rewarded. Who has a bigger effect on the bottom line- the CEO or the inside sales guy? Is that making the worker's salary lower because he is making more? I know my salary has more than tripled since I started 11yrs ago. I don't want to be the CEO but I know what to do to increase my pay. Personally I may look at our CEO's pay once a year and that's because google sends me the article. I honestly don't care
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Your situation is actually very similar to mine. Not sure I would want the top spot. However, if I did apply myself and end up gettiing it I would take the money. Justifying the type of money I would be getting paid would be hard to do. Admittedly, this may be because I don't understand everything the job entails. It also may be because something I did drove the stock price up, increasing my overall compensation. That said, given the benefits and compensation I would be getting, it would be hard for me to say I was the only one in the company that could have made that golden decision. There is a factor of luck involved that allowed me to get the opportunity.

At the end of the day, I don't really care about the numbers, per se. I am curious, however, how it is all justified.

utvolpj said:
different types of employees. If the guy designed a top product then I doubt he's hurting for money. I also doubt he's the type who is clamoring to manage a huge group of diverse people
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Maybe. But IMO he is just as important to the bottomline as the guy at the top, at least not as much less as the pay would indicate.
 
#142
#142
I'll use one of our previous CEO's as an example- in 5 years he took our company from $3bil to $9bil in sales. I would say he was definitely worth his salary to the stockholders/board. The last guy didn't quite understand the business and ended up getting canned as sales dropped (can blame the economy but I also trust the people who described him to me).
 
#143
#143
utvolpj said:
I'll use one of our previous CEO's as an example- in 5 years he took our company from $3bil to $9bil in sales. I would say he was definitely worth his salary to the stockholders/board. The last guy didn't quite understand the business and ended up getting canned as sales dropped (can blame the economy but I also trust the people who described him to me).
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For sure, risk/reward. I believe the presence of a hierarchy is absolutely necessary to an economy, so the smarter/harder-working of us getting rewarded justly.
 
#146
#146
utgibbs said:
I'm not seeking an argument. I'm trying to put the record straight. If there is an argument, it is because some beliefs just don't jive with the real world outside the back door.

As even the OECD has reported, there are greater opportunities for upward mobility in Europe than here.

The mythology needs correcting. Some (droski) would say "Move over there!" but this is simply being sold out to the man.

Wouldn't it be better to correct this state of affairs instead of parroting squawk box or whatever?
Click to expand...

As in the 14 tril we are currently in the hole for? Absolutely. Method on how best to do that is the debate.

You and I will have differences here.
 
#147
#147
IPorange said:
What am I desperate about? I've mostly just been browsing this thread. Please explain.


It's counter-intuitive because you used the term "new rich," and inheritance is clearly wealth that had already been previously gathered and attained by someone else, and then passed on. "Old money," so to speak.
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Thus, the beneficiaries are newly rich. And, in fact, it is a lot of Old Money on top of Old Money.

C'mon, IP. You know you are desperate to score a point. :)
 
#148
#148
BeecherVol said:
As in the 14 tril we are currently in the hole for? Absolutely. Method on how best to do that is the debate.

You and I will have differences here.
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That's fair enough.

We do have some tried and true methods for dealing with it, as we were in a bigger hole after WWII....
 
#149
#149
utgibbs said:
That's fair enough.

We do have some tried and true methods for dealing with it, as we were in a bigger hole after WWII....
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Economists would probably agree that it's an easy way to dig yourself out of a hole quickly, but likely won't sustain growth.
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#150
#150
utgibbs said:
Thus, the beneficiaries are newly rich. And, in fact, it is a lot of Old Money on top of Old Money.

C'mon, IP. You know you are desperate to score a point. :)
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This does not pass the common sense test.
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