obama tells Israel to go back to 1967 borders

[Vol423]

I can buy this view as well. If I do though, I have to rate today's speech as a big failure. Why should we set the conditions for them dealing with it? That applies to Bush, Obama or whoever. If we are setting terms then we better be involved. If we aren't involved, then let them work it out. I'm good either way.

Agreed. If Obama isn't prepared to try to offer legitimate solutions (and he isn't), then he should just keep his mouth shut.

 

[sjt18]

Neither Jesus nor his disciples nor the Gospel writers nor Paul ever advocated for prohibition against slavery.

In fact, Jesus actually healed a man's slave so that the slave could get back to work.

Directly to your point... Jesus and Paul for that matter declared that Christ's kingdom was not of this world. Slave or free in this life did not matter. Freedom in Christ from sin was all that mattered. In the scheme of eternity, temporal and physical slavery was/is inconsequential. Both were more concerned about the spirit than the flesh... and because spirits, lives, hearts, and minds changed.... the world changed.

 

[fl0at]

Do you understand the Greek or even Hebrew conception of slavery? They were far more like what we consider employees than our image of American slavery.

The Greeks had at least 4 levels of slaves (largely carried over by the Romans). The lowest levels were much like what we imagine slavery to be like. The highest level include doctors.

Even that system diminished as Christianity spread within the first 400-500 years after Christ.

So, based on this, house slaves weren't slaves, either, just really closely monitored guests of the plantation, that also did the cooking and cleaning?

I mean, if we are going to go all apologist, let's go all out.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[lawgator1]

Do you truly believe this?

Wow...

Obama is supporting the terrorists who do not even recognize Israel's right to exist.

And here we have, finally, the real purpose of the insta-criticism of the right, flowing mainly from Fox.

Obama is, after all, a Secret Agent Muslim.

 

[sjt18]

Absolutely am scripturally illiterate.

And I wonder if you are extremely closeted.

My turn, if you do accept Jesus, do you go to Heaven? What about those who accept Jesus, but do not follow his followers' viewpoints on things like, homosexuality?

Are you oppressed because your living soul is kept away from the maker, that you believe in?

Methinks those two viewpoints... are... what was the word? Oh, yes: hypocrite.

Maybe you can expand for me, the illiterate. Share the word MHF, share the word.

Congratulations. You win the sophistry award for this thread.

You came nowhere close to demonstrating anything remotely associated with hypocrisy.

Your problem on homosexuality isn't with Christ's followers. It is with Christ Himself. Christ very, very strongly affirmed marriage between man and woman. Sex outside of this relationship was declared fornication... including homosexual behavior. Fornication was declared sinful.

Paul affirms this several times. The OT moral law affirms it.

 

[MikeHamiltonFan]

Absolutely am scripturally illiterate.

And I wonder if you are extremely closeted.

My turn, if you do accept Jesus, do you go to Heaven? What about those who accept Jesus, but do not follow his followers' viewpoints on things like, homosexuality?

Are you oppressed because your living soul is kept away from the maker, that you believe in?

Methinks those two viewpoints... are... what was the word? Oh, yes: hypocrite.

Maybe you can expand for me, the illiterate. Share the word MHF, share the word.

No I am not gay, nor am I afraid of homosexuals. I do feel pity for them that they are living in a culture that no longer recognizes their self destructive behavior as mental illness.

Belief...Hmm...You may be asking this sincerely (unlikely) so I will answer. If you intellectually assent to Jesus, it does not bring about salvation. Scripture teaches that demons believe, but they are not going to heaven. Belief in the sense that your life is transformed and you repent as a consequence is certainly saving. 1 Corinthians 15 is a fairly quick read you can find on biblegateway.com in a variety of versions for free and it contains the whole good news of who Christ did and how someone can be saved.

Jesus described himself as a divider, and He described His followers as facing certain persecution. He did not allow for people to pick and choose which parts of revealed truth they would believe in.

He also made an exclusive truth claim (He was not a Unitarian), when He said, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to Father, except through me."

 

[therealUT]

Do you understand the Greek or even Hebrew conception of slavery? They were far more like what we consider employees than our image of American slavery.

The Greeks had at least 4 levels of slaves (largely carried over by the Romans). The lowest levels were much like what we imagine slavery to be like. The highest level include doctors.

Even that system diminished as Christianity spread within the first 400-500 years after Christ.

Oppression is oppression. Jesus nor his disciples had any inclination to stop it.

 

[sjt18]

So, based on this, house slaves weren't slaves, either, just really closely monitored guests of the plantation, that also did the cooking and cleaning?

Did I say any such thing? No. Are you attempting another strawman? Yes. Does it seem pretty apparent that you do not understand the ancient conception of slavery around the time of Christ and Paul? Yes.

I mean, if we are going to go all apologist, let's go all out.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

You have certainly gone "all out" with deceptive debate tactics. But you go ahead and argue with things I didn't say if it makes you feel good, OK?

 

[fl0at]

Congratulations. You win the sophistry award for this thread.

Sweet. Do I get an award banquet? If so, I want to invite a few guests.

You came nowhere close to demonstrating anything remotely associated with hypocrisy.

What is necessary to go to heaven? I seem to recall something in John.

And then, what was it, 1st Romans?

Your problem on homosexuality isn't with Christ's followers. It is with Christ Himself. Christ very, very strongly affirmed marriage between man and woman. Sex outside of this relationship was declared fornication... including homosexual behavior. Fornication was declared sinful.

Verse? Specifically the one that says, and Jesus said ....

Paul affirms this several times. The OT moral law affirms it.

Yes he did, and he was one of those "followers," was he not?

 

[fl0at]

Did I say any such thing? No. Are you attempting another strawman? Yes. Does it seem pretty apparent that you do not understand the ancient conception of slavery around the time of Christ and Paul? Yes.

If I am attempting a straw man argument, you are attempting one known as a package-deal.

You have certainly gone "all out" with deceptive debate tactics. But you go ahead and argue with things I didn't say if it makes you feel good, OK?

Will do, thanks much.

 

[sjt18]

Oppression is oppression. Jesus nor his disciples had any inclination to stop it.

Of course He did. The fact that you refuse to recognize or accept the way He designed is your problem. Once again, you attempt to stand in judgment over God. This is a recurring theme for you. I really do not know what motivates your determined unbelief... but the evidence is unmistakeable.

You are making the exact same argument the Pharisees made before rationalizing the murder of Jesus. The Jews were oppressed. The Messiah was supposed to come and immediately wipe out all oppressors and set up His just kingdom... of course giving a healthy nod to their superior righteousness. When He failed to be what they wanted and expected and thought was RIGHT, they villified, condemned, and killed Him.

Your comments follow the same pattern... right down to the superior attitude when you talk down to us poor ignorant Christians.

 

[fl0at]

No I am not gay, nor am I afraid of homosexuals. I do feel pity for them that they are living in a culture that no longer recognizes their self destructive behavior as mental illness.

Mental illness? Documentation, please? Surely such a study has been published in AJP?

Belief...Hmm...You may be asking this sincerely (unlikely) so I will answer. If you intellectually assent to Jesus, it does not bring about salvation. Scripture teaches that demons believe, but they are not going to heaven. Belief in the sense that your life is transformed and you repent as a consequence is certainly saving. 1 Corinthians 15 is a fairly quick read you can find on biblegateway.com in a variety of versions for free and it contains the whole good news of who Christ did and how someone can be saved.

Will read. Still working on John 3:15-16. Will need to compare the two.

 

[sjt18]

What is necessary to go to heaven? I seem to recall something in John.

And then, what was it, 1st Romans?

What does that have to do with anything much less hypocrisy? You're making no sense.

Verse? Specifically the one that says, and Jesus said ....

Do the work yourself. I forget the passage but it is in Matthew where Jesus is discussing divorce.

Yes he did, and he was one of those "followers," was he not?

And so?

 

[fl0at]

What does that have to do with anything much less hypocrisy? You're making no sense.

I will elaborate: if we are to take John 3:15-16 as our basis, that those who believe in Jesus will not perish, but have everlasting life (ie: heaven).

And then we take the belief that one may meet the requirements for 3:15-16, but also fail to meet the requirement laid out in Romans, specifically regarding homosexuality... you don't see that as a practice of hypocrisy?

Do the work yourself. I forget the passage but it is in Matthew where Jesus is discussing divorce.

Excellent Christian statement. Why we have missionaries, I shall never know. People can just do the work themselves.

And so?

You stated my problem was with Jesus, not with his followers'. This was the purpose of my disagreement, and evidence as such as well. I have no problem with Jesus. I have all kinds of problems with his believers.

 

[sjt18]

Will read. Still working on John 3:15-16. Will need to compare the two.

Do so but only after you understand what "believe" really means in that context.

If you genuinely believe something it WILL change your behavior and thinking. If you believe your car is about to break down, you won't take off to California in it. If you believe a chair is sturdy enough to hold your weight you will sit down in it.

Believe in that context is very much associated with the word "confess" in Romans 10- to come to an convicted agreement with someone else's point of view. It means to leave behind what you think and accept with complete conviction the Lordship of Christ.

 

[MikeHamiltonFan]

Mental illness? Documentation, please? Surely such a study has been published in AJP?



Will read. Still working on John 3:15-16. Will need to compare the two.

Everyone knew that homosexuality was a mental illness until a group led by Dr. Robert Spitzer convinced the APA to remove it from the DSM. Spitzer now knows that scientifically he was incorrect to believe that homosexuality something you cannot change and are born with. That revelation was based on years of research but was not met with applause from the APA which is largely populated by homosexuals and friends of homosexuals.

 

[MikeHamiltonFan]

And here we have, finally, the real purpose of the insta-criticism of the right, flowing mainly from Fox.

Obama is, after all, a Secret Agent Muslim.

Come on now,

I never said anything of the sort. I also do not listen to any right wing radio, or watch Fox News.

Carter and Obama are two of the dumbest Presidents in the last century. Carter is not a secret Muslim, he is just a complete idiot who falls for lies told to him by Muslims. Both are completely useless in the Middle East and do not understand that strength is what is respected by Muslims.

And no, the Navy Seals killing Bin Laden after hunting him down using information obtained using EIT does not mean Obama is a genius in foreign policy. The only decisions that have not been terrible have been continuations of Bush policy.


I also think we should have a dramatic draw down in Afghanistan and Iraq, should be spending far less and using lots more special forces and local talent.

 

[fl0at]

Everyone knew that homosexuality was a mental illness until a group led by Dr. Robert Spitzer convinced the APA to remove it from the DSM. Spitzer now knows that scientifically he was incorrect to believe that homosexuality something you cannot change and are born with. That revelation was based on years of research but was not met with applause from the APA which is largely populated by homosexuals and friends of homosexuals.

And just which biochemical pathway has Spitzer established that reflects such a view of mental illness?

And which drug should be prescribed to overcome this defect, while still maintaining a "mentally competent" state of heterosexuality?

 

[MikeHamiltonFan]

As with many types of mental illness there is not a cure with absolute efficacy yet.

I would suggest that like Thorazine helps with psychosis, perhaps testosterone should be tried on those who struggle with being feminine. There are also imprinting therapies that could help overcome the initial bonding that molestation victims face. It is often used to help women who have been raped overcome their feeling of revulsion to men.

 

[kptvol]

And here we have, finally, the real purpose of the insta-criticism of the right, flowing mainly from Fox.

Obama is, after all, a Secret Agent Muslim.

All it took was over 100 posts and the input of a poster no one takes seriously. You've really proven your point.

 

[fl0at]

As with many types of mental illness there is not a cure with absolute efficacy yet.

I would suggest that like Thorazine helps with psychosis, perhaps testosterone should be tried on those who struggle with being feminine. There are also imprinting therapies that could help overcome the initial bonding that molestation victims face. It is often used to help women who have been raped overcome their feeling of revulsion to men.

You are fully aware of endocrinology studies on testosterone and homosexuality, correct? You are aware that T has not been shown to be abnormal, right?

Or, are you simply talking out your rear?

 

[IPorange]

You are fully aware of endocrinology studies on testosterone and homosexuality, correct? You are aware that T has not been shown to be abnormal, right?

Or, are you simply talking out your rear?

He's showing how ignorant he really is, don't stop him.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[sjt18]

I will elaborate: if we are to take John 3:15-16 as our basis, that those who believe in Jesus will not perish, but have everlasting life (ie: heaven).

And then we take the belief that one may meet the requirements for 3:15-16, but also fail to meet the requirement laid out in Romans, specifically regarding homosexuality... you don't see that as a practice of hypocrisy?

See my post concerning the meaning of belief. As MHF asserted, you are defining belief as mental assent.

If someone said, "I believe I love you" then mocked you, betrayed you, and generally disrespected and mistreated you... would that constitute a genuine "belief"? Not at all.

To answer your question, believers sin. Believers sometimes struggle with sin for their whole lives. Some believe Paul's thorn in the side was a sin that he struggled with.

Some believers struggle with homosexual sin. Believers do not deny that it is sin or rationalize it in any way, deny that it should be battled and overcome, or argue that it is morally equivalent to the man-woman-marriage relationship affirmed by the Bible.

Excellent Christian statement. Why we have missionaries, I shall never know. People can just do the work themselves.

If you showed genuine interest in learning rather than just arguing I would gladly do it for you. If you did not have access to a Bible I'd do it for you.

You stated my problem was with Jesus, not with his followers'. This was the purpose of my disagreement, and evidence as such as well. I have no problem with Jesus. I have all kinds of problems with his believers.

Jesus said He did not come to overturn the law but to complete it... to fulfill it. Jesus NEVER contradicted or changed a moral standard from the OT. That includes those regarding sexuality.

If you think that Jesus approved of or was in any way ambivalent about sexual sins to include homosexuality then you are deluding yourself.

FTR, Paul was more than just a follower of Christ. He was an Apostle. He was someone according to the NT who was used to pen scripture. The Apostles to include Paul wrote the doctrines and teachings of Christ. The dichotomy you are apparently trying to create... does not exist.

 

[sjt18]

Homosexuality has not been proven in spite of much effort to be biological and is NOT a mental illness that can be cured by a miracle drug. It is a spiritual/moral issue and choice.

 

[IPorange]

Homosexuality has not been proven in spite of much effort to be biological and is NOT a mental illness that can be cured by a miracle drug. It is a spiritual/moral issue and choice.

at what age did you decide to not be attracted to men?
Posted via VolNation Mobile