obama tells Israel to go back to 1967 borders

If someone said, "I believe I love you" then mocked you, betrayed you, and generally disrespected and mistreated you... would that constitute a genuine "belief"? Not at all.

Why are they not able to love you, and do all of those things?

To answer your question, believers sin. Believers sometimes struggle with sin for their whole lives. Some believe Paul's thorn in the side was a sin that he struggled with.

Some believers struggle with homosexual sin. Believers do not deny that it is sin or rationalize it in any way, deny that it should be battled and overcome, or argue that it is morally equivalent to the man-woman-marriage relationship affirmed by the Bible.

Believers sin, yes. You accept that, as do all. It is the level of sin that you accept that is illogical.

Are there "gray" sins, or just "black and white" sins? If only black and white, then you should use that broad stroke brush to paint you and your entire religion with the same brush you paint an entire subset of the population.

If you showed genuine interest in learning rather than just arguing I would gladly do it for you. If you did not have access to a Bible I'd do it for you.

If I had no interest in learning, I wouldn't be here. I may very well disagree, but that does not mean I am not learning.

I am unlikely to change my view, but that does not mean I am not learning, or attempting to learn.

And I do not have access to a Bible. I have the Internet, though. I can look up the passage, when given. I'll also need the version, because there are several out there.

Jesus said He did not come to overturn the law but to complete it... to fulfill it. Jesus NEVER contradicted or changed a moral standard from the OT. That includes those regarding sexuality.

Then Jesus had no qualms with Deuteronomy? Are you wearing clothes made of two different fibers today? You should probably get rid of them, then. Ya know, so you can strive to remove sin.

If you think that Jesus approved of or was in any way ambivalent about sexual sins to include homosexuality then you are deluding yourself.

FTR, Paul was more than just a follower of Christ. He was an Apostle. He was someone according to the NT who was used to pen scripture. The Apostles to include Paul wrote the doctrines and teachings of Christ. The dichotomy you are apparently trying to create... does not exist.

It not only exists, it is the foundation for your religion. Whether you believe that or not, Jesus did not write scripture. The basis for all that which you deride are from man.
 
As with many types of mental illness there is not a cure with absolute efficacy yet.

I would suggest that like Thorazine helps with psychosis, perhaps testosterone should be tried on those who struggle with being feminine. There are also imprinting therapies that could help overcome the initial bonding that molestation victims face. It is often used to help women who have been raped overcome their feeling of revulsion to men.

I have never contiplated using the ignore feature until you came here spouting your completely asinine views. I even have an understanding of gs (I dont agree with a lot of what he says, but he is a pretty decent guy when talking one on one) and tolerate joevols fairly well. Congrats, your kooky absolutist bloviating is compelling a guy (me) that attempts to and prides himself on getting along with or at least understand others to write you off in a truly amazing short period of time, I might add. I even manage to understand/exist in harmony with irrational and self-centered teenagers on a daily basis and keep my sanity. Ask around. Most would agree that you have accomplished a herculean task.
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Non sequitur. I did not say there was no innate cause. I said it had not been proven to be a biological cause.

So, what is the innate cause, and when did you make that moral/spiritual choice to follow said trait? Is it a daily struggle to keep from regressing?
 
Why are they not able to love you, and do all of those things?
So a person can be completely hateful toward you and still "love" you?

In short, because it contradicts the very meaning of "love". Genuine love is the desire and commitment to the best interest of another person. It leads to emotion but is not simply emotion. Sometimes the emotions associated with genuine love are not pleasant emotions... sometimes they are very unpleasant. Often love does not reward the person giving it.

Believers sin, yes. You accept that, as do all. It is the level of sin that you accept that is illogical.
Explain? What level of sin have I said was acceptable or unacceptable? The word "repent" is relevant here. It means to "turn". Any and all sin can be forgiven but repentance is prerequisite... and that requires one adopt God's view of sin and commit to resisting it.

Are there "gray" sins, or just "black and white" sins? If only black and white, then you should use that broad stroke brush to paint you and your entire religion with the same brush you paint an entire subset of the population.
What do you mean? I am a sinner. A forgiven sinner but a sinner none the less. My sins if not forgiven are every bit as damning as the most promiscuous homosexual in the world.

Are there sins that are considered "worse" by people and to some extent even the Bible? Probably so. Pride... which I struggle with at times is one of them... and so is homosexuality. Scripture records that God hates 7 things... I have been guilty of more than one.

I have not painted an entire subset as far as I know. I have simply asserted the biblical truth that homosexual behavior is a sin. Those who engage in sin are called sinners. Those who engage in sin unrepentantly give evidence of unbelief.
And I do not have access to a Bible. I have the Internet, though. I can look up the passage, when given. I'll also need the version, because there are several out there.
Matthew 19 gives a strong affirmation of male-female marriage only.

Then Jesus had no qualms with Deuteronomy? Are you wearing clothes made of two different fibers today? You should probably get rid of them, then. Ya know, so you can strive to remove sin.
Not very becoming to continue to attempt this kind of sophistry. Do you even know any of the background concerning that civil law? You are certainly aware that it was not a moral law, right?



It not only exists, it is the foundation for your religion. Whether you believe that or not, Jesus did not write scripture. The basis for all that which you deride are from man.

Did I say that Jesus wrote anything? His disciples to whom He said He would send the Spirit to guide into "all truth" did however write. Others wrote under their authority. Paul claimed to have been visited by the resurrected Christ and became an Apostle as one "born out of season".

The foundation for my belief is the Bible and particularly the NT. According to the Bible, it was written by men acting under inspiration. Peter wrote that men wrote as they were "moved". The NT records the doctrines and teachings of Christ and the beginnings of the Church.

I am not "deriding" anyone any more than it would be deriding someone to tell them to watch out for a speeding bus. I am communicating a moral standard derived from a normative reading of the Bible.
 
So, what is the innate cause, and when did you make that moral/spiritual choice to follow said trait? Is it a daily struggle to keep from regressing?

Are you trying to be argumentative or is this a serious question?

Do I struggle with sin? Yes. Do I struggle with some sins more so than others? Yes. I have innate desires for things that are sinful. To help you understand this in this part of the life of a Christian, read the latter part of Romans 7.

Do all people have the same weaknesses with regards to temptation? No. I believe the Bible by example and word indicates that all are tempted but not necessarily to the same degree by the same sins. The sins that appeal to me may or may not appeal to you. You may well be repulsed by them and not understand how anyone could even be tempted... and vice versa.

Christians often do fail in this regard when it comes to homosexuality.
 
Oh, the innate cause is our sin nature... that should come out as your read Romans 7 also.
 
So a person can be completely hateful toward you and still "love" you?

Absolutely. They are not mutually exclusive.

Explain? What level of sin have I said was acceptable or unacceptable? The word "repent" is relevant here. It means to "turn". Any and all sin can be forgiven but repentance is prerequisite... and that requires one adopt God's view of sin and commit to resisting it.

Commit to resisting it, or resist it? You commit to resisting sin, but I'm sure you, on occasion, give in? And this is acceptable?

My implication is that you are accepting of sin, so long as you are committed to resisting it, or "repent." Yet, you seem whole heartedly against homosexuality.

Unless you adjust your position to state that others should influence others' decisions on sin, and act to stop their sins, then a position against homosexuality and marriage is unfounded.

And I say this because, I assume, it does not affect you, and thus is between God and the individual.



What do you mean? I am a sinner. A forgiven sinner but a sinner none the less. My sins if not forgiven are every bit as damning as the most promiscuous homosexual in the world.

Are there sins that are considered "worse" by people and to some extent even the Bible? Probably so. Pride... which I struggle with at times is one of them... and so is homosexuality. Scripture records that God hates 7 things... I have been guilty of more than one.

I have not painted an entire subset as far as I know. I have simply asserted the biblical truth that homosexual behavior is a sin. Those who engage in sin are called sinners. Those who engage in sin unrepentantly give evidence of unbelief.

Is it your place to state that those who do engage, do so without repenting? Is it your place to state that others should follow your path, perfectly interrupting the one to one relationship between God and the individual?

I am under the impression that you are against male-male marriage, which is the basis for that argument. You may not be, I may have been mistaken.

Matthew 19 gives a strong affirmation of male-female marriage only.
I'll read.

Not very becoming to continue to attempt this kind of sophistry. Do you even know any of the background concerning that civil law? You are certainly aware that it was not a moral law, right?

Which specifically are the moral laws? And no, I do not have a background concerning "civil law" in ancient Jewish culture.


I am not "deriding" anyone any more than it would be deriding someone to tell them to watch out for a speeding bus. I am communicating a moral standard derived from a normative reading of the Bible.

You are communicating a moral standard, based on the morality of the writer. At contention is the... morality of the writer; the follower.

Inspired, moved. I've been all at an opera. I don't worship the morality of the play write.
 
Oh, the innate cause is our sin nature... that should come out as your read Romans 7 also.

The innate cause of the sin, is the nature to sin itself? Interesting.

I think that does actually bring us back to what IPO asked, that you shrugged off as fallacy: at what point in your life did you chose to ignore the innate nature to sin by homosexuality?

Or, if you would like to state that it is unappealing, at which point did you become aware that it was unappealing?

Or, did you just never possess the sin receptor for homosexuality?
 
I'm really not convinced that homosexuality is any more evil than menstruating within city limits, eating food cooked on an idol's altar, or having a female church leader. They all sound like cultural man-made rules, not divine ones.
 
I'm really not convinced that homosexuality is any more evil than menstruating within city limits, eating food cooked on an idol's altar, or having a female church leader. They all sound like cultural man-made rules, not divine ones.

Don't forget divorce, except for adultery. As laid out in Matthew 19.

And, on that note, I'm failing to see where Jesus speaks out for only male-female marriage.
 
Absolutely. They are not mutually exclusive.
I am afraid they are. If you think someone can love you and act hatefully toward you as the only evidence... then you are simply confused about the term.

Commit to resisting it, or resist it? You commit to resisting sin, but I'm sure you, on occasion, give in? And this is acceptable?
Acceptable? No. Forgiveable? Yes.

My implication is that you are accepting of sin, so long as you are committed to resisting it, or "repent." Yet, you seem whole heartedly against homosexuality.
I am against all sin and especially my own. So yes, I am against homosexual sin.

If someone broke your trust in a hurtful way, how would you see reconciliation going? Would they commit to earning your trust back and then give evidence by their actions? Or would it consist of continued violations of your trust with complete indifference to your pain?

Unless you adjust your position to state that others should influence others' decisions on sin, and act to stop their sins, then a position against homosexuality and marriage is unfounded.
I would like to answer but do not quite understand you.

And I say this because, I assume, it does not affect you, and thus is between God and the individual.
Cain asked "Am I my brother's keeper?"

If the Bible is correct and all men who do not repent are destined for judgment against the absolute standard of God's moral law which only one man has obeyed... AND I am commissioned as a believer to both care about the welfare of others and warn them... then how can I not say it is wrong?

If a kid is very happily riding their bike down the street and I watch as a bus approaches from a blind turn... is the loving thing to warn the child and ruin their pleasant bike ride or to mind my own business and let him get smashed?

Is it your place to state that those who do engage, do so without repenting?
No. But repentance certainly has its evidence or it is not repentance. If you were walking to the kitchen and repented... would you still wind up repeatedly in the kitchen?
Is it your place to state that others should follow your path, perfectly interrupting the one to one relationship between God and the individual?
Nope. Just to share the Gospel and what I know of the Bible so that they might have that relationship if they don't.

I am under the impression that you are against male-male marriage, which is the basis for that argument. You may not be, I may have been mistaken.
Yes. I am. But not for religious reasons. Homosexual relationships were revered in Paul's day. He called sin sin but did not major on trying to change laws. His goal was to convert sinners to Christ... a far more effective tact.

Which specifically are the moral laws? And no, I do not have a background concerning "civil law" in ancient Jewish culture.
Those which transcended culture, civil order, and religious ritual. Things like lying, cheating, stealing, pride, incest, homosexuality, beastiality, adultery, fornication, strife,... some of which were also punished by civil law. These things are not symbolic or simply for good order.

You are communicating a moral standard, based on the morality of the writer. At contention is the... morality of the writer; the follower.
No. The contention is the merit of the Bible and who you accept as its ultimate author and superintendant. If it is only a man written book like any other with truth mixed with error as concerning its content and message then I am wrong. I am wrong in a way consistent with the law written on man's conscience mentioned in Romans 2:14-15... wrong about a moral standard which has historically proven to yield happiness and profitable lives... but still wrong.

Inspired, moved. I've been all at an opera. I don't worship the morality of the play write.

The issue isn't the hand but the product. "Inspired" is a poor translation in 2 Tim 3. The better word is "breathed". All scripture is "God breathed".
 
Of course He did. The fact that you refuse to recognize or accept the way He designed is your problem. Once again, you attempt to stand in judgment over God. This is a recurring theme for you. I really do not know what motivates your determined unbelief... but the evidence is unmistakeable.

I am standing in judgment over God? Not at all. I am stating that I do not believe in Christian mythology. If I believed and then said it was wrong, then your statement would hold water.

You are making the exact same argument the Pharisees made before rationalizing the murder of Jesus. The Jews were oppressed. The Messiah was supposed to come and immediately wipe out all oppressors and set up His just kingdom... of course giving a healthy nod to their superior righteousness. When He failed to be what they wanted and expected and thought was RIGHT, they villified, condemned, and killed Him.

I called for the crucifixion of somebody? I must have been drunk.

Your comments follow the same pattern... right down to the superior attitude when you talk down to us poor ignorant Christians.

I talk down to certain individuals, regardless of creed. You are one of those individuals. It is not because you are Christian, it is because you are ignorant.
 
The innate cause of the sin, is the nature to sin itself? Interesting.

I think that does actually bring us back to what IPO asked, that you shrugged off as fallacy: at what point in your life did you chose to ignore the innate nature to sin by homosexuality?
Like I mentioned before, not all are weak to the same temptations... but all are weak to some types of temptation. That includes me.

Or, did you just never possess the sin receptor for homosexuality?

If your question is do I believe that anyone can environmentally be influenced to commit pretty much any sin then the answer is yes. My environment did not lead me there nor was it a weakness for me.
 
I talk down to certain individuals, regardless of creed. You are one of those individuals. It is not because you are Christian, it is because you are ignorant.

Wow... you are pompous and self absorbed aren't you?

Making an informed decision to disagree with you constitutes "ignorance". Who knew?... Besides you I mean.
 
I am afraid they are. If you think someone can love you and act hatefully toward you as the only evidence... then you are simply confused about the term.

If someone broke your trust in a hurtful way, how would you see reconciliation going? Would they commit to earning your trust back and then give evidence by their actions? Or would it consist of continued violations of your trust with complete indifference to your pain?

I accept people for who they are, not what I want them to be. If they chose to continually violate my trust, then that is who they are. They would not have to beg for reconciliation; it is already given.

Cain asked "Am I my brother's keeper?"

If the Bible is correct and all men who do not repent are destined for judgment against the absolute standard of God's moral law which only one man has obeyed... AND I am commissioned as a believer to both care about the welfare of others and warn them... then how can I not say it is wrong?

If a kid is very happily riding their bike down the street and I watch as a bus approaches from a blind turn... is the loving thing to warn the child and ruin their pleasant bike ride or to mind my own business and let him get smashed?

You may chose to warn, or not. I would not think you should forbid all riding of the bike, however. To do so would be to act against the concept of a warning. It would, in short, be a ban.

Yes. I am. But not for religious reasons. Homosexual relationships were revered in Paul's day. He called sin sin but did not major on trying to change laws. His goal was to convert sinners to Christ... a far more effective tact.

Ok. I can accept that you are against it for reasons other than religion.

Those which transcended culture, civil order, and religious ritual. Things like lying, cheating, stealing, pride, incest, homosexuality, beastiality, adultery, fornication, strife,... some of which were also punished by civil law. These things are not symbolic or simply for good order.

Ok, just for clarification, how is homosexuality disruptive to culture or civil order? I can safely leave religious ritual out, since you don't oppose on religious grounds.

The issue isn't the hand but the product. "Inspired" is a poor translation in 2 Tim 3. The better word is "breathed". All scripture is "God breathed".

Neat. Is Deuteronomy scripture? If not, that is fine. But we need to define what is scripture, and what is not? If scripture is in the Bible, then those civil laws, as part of scripture, is therefore "God breathed," right?

If not, we need to define what scripture is, and what scripture is not.
 
Like I mentioned before, not all are weak to the same temptations... but all are weak to some types of temptation. That includes me.

If your question is do I believe that anyone can environmentally be influenced to commit pretty much any sin then the answer is yes. My environment did not lead me there nor was it a weakness for me.

I accept both of these arguments. I don't agree with them, but they are thought provoking.

Very interesting interpretation and explanation.
 
Of course He did. The fact that you refuse to recognize or accept the way He designed is your problem. Once again, you attempt to stand in judgment over God. This is a recurring theme for you. I really do not know what motivates your determined unbelief... but the evidence is unmistakeable.

You are making the exact same argument the Pharisees made before rationalizing the murder of Jesus. The Jews were oppressed. The Messiah was supposed to come and immediately wipe out all oppressors and set up His just kingdom... of course giving a healthy nod to their superior righteousness. When He failed to be what they wanted and expected and thought was RIGHT, they villified, condemned, and killed Him.

Your comments follow the same pattern... right down to the superior attitude when you talk down to us poor ignorant Christians.

I am a believer in the death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus to create a pathway for man to receive forgiveness and salvation. I have accepted Jesus into my life and I try to live a life that is pleasing to Him. That makes me a Christian. Not that trUT needs help, but he has been nothing but civil with me. We don't agree on everything, either. So I think saying he talks down to all Christians is not accurate.
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Analogy weak. Try again.

How about if you ran a country, surrounded by 12 others that were, to varying degrees, hell bent on killing all of you. An opportunity presents itself to move a few thousand of your million of people out of some desert land over here, and move them to some desert land over there, and in exchange no more threat to kill every single one of the millions in your country.

Imagine that the desert over here you got 34 years ago and you keep spending an enormous part of your GNP protecting it because you are afraid that if you give it up it will be used against you.

Imagine further that an enormous power asked you to try to make that deal and pledged that, if the 12 other countries didn't take it, then you could count on us for the foreseeable future to support you in your fight against the 12.

You got it right then got it wrong in the same paragraph.
 
Just wondering while we are on Israel. Obama has been all over the world, but why hasn't he made a stop in Israel? And this man is trying to tell them to give up land? lmao, nice..Anyways, I say let Israel off the leash and let us worry about our problems at home because there's plenty of them. jmo.
 
After the impending rapture, we can just get our One-World government up and running. We can redraw and redeploy all those heathen muslims however The Rider of the Pale Horse sees fit, and let Israel figure out who their 144,000 will be at their leisure. Meanwhile, drunken orgies all around.

So glad the good times are finally almost here.
 
After the impending rapture, we can just get our One-World government up and running. We can redraw and redeploy all those heathen muslims however The Rider of the Pale Horse sees fit, and let Israel figure out who their 144,000 will be at their leisure. Meanwhile, drunken orgies all around.

So glad the good times are finally almost here.
3 1/2 hours to go
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Sounds like a winner.

...but you seem to forget how this story ends.

The good times go really really bad.

On a side note, what does this have to do with Israel and the situation that happened at the White House other than you always looking for an excuse to throw your religious views into the mix?
 

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