Obama to back religious freedom at Islam dinner

#27
#27
justingroves said:
Exactly.

I might buy the "freedom of Christianity" spiel if all the founding fathers were, you know, Christians.
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Yeah, because you had Muslim, Buddists, and other religions mixed in on those 3 ships that landed at Plymouth. Give me a freaking break.
 
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#28
#28
Oldvol75 said:
If there is so much wrong with this post by some of you, are you willing to let the Muslims inact their laws because its part of their religion?
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nobody said the first word about any religion enacting laws. In fact, that's exactly the thing that our constitution prohibits.
 
#29
#29
g8terh8ter_eric said:
Yeah, because you had Muslim, Buddists, and other religions mixed in on those 3 ships that landed at Plymouth. Give me a freaking break.
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Is this about the religious makeup of our founding fathers, or the actual principles they espoused in writing a set of rules that try to be religion neutral?
 
#30
#30
BigPapaVol said:
Is this about the religious makeup of our founding fathers, or the actual principles they espoused in writing a set of rules that try to be religion neutral?
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The reason they wanted to keep that religion neutral is because of what happened to the Church of England. They knew a state religion would eventually become corrupt and fail the people. That's why the freedom of religion clause exists. It's not for Muslim people, it's for Christians. There were no Muslims, and in fact, if they even knew their history, they knew that Muslims persecuted Christians wherever they went. Does anyone actually KNOW what the Church of England was removed from the Roman Catholic Church??
 
#31
#31
g8terh8ter_eric said:
The reason they wanted to keep that religion neutral is because of what happened to the Church of England. They knew a state religion would eventually become corrupt and fail the people. That's why the freedom of religion clause exists. It's not for Muslim people, it's for Christians. There were no Muslims, and in fact, if they even knew their history, they knew that Muslims persecuted Christians wherever they went. Does anyone actually KNOW what the Church of England was removed from the Roman Catholic Church??
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That's absurd. It was for the purpose of keeping the government out of the religion business altogether.
 
#32
#32
BigPapaVol said:
That's absurd. It was for the purpose of keeping the government out of the religion business altogether.
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Then explain to me why it's "OK" for the government to be oblivious to the fact that they are creating the environment for another Crusades type war within our own borders?? That's NOT OK, period. In fact, it's quite dumb.
 
#33
#33
g8terh8ter_eric said:
The reason they wanted to keep that religion neutral is because of what happened to the Church of England. They knew a state religion would eventually become corrupt and fail the people. That's why the freedom of religion clause exists. It's not for Muslim people, it's for Christians. There were no Muslims, and in fact, if they even knew their history, they knew that Muslims persecuted Christians wherever they went. Does anyone actually KNOW what the Church of England was removed from the Roman Catholic Church??
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No

BigPapaVol said:
That's absurd. It was for the purpose of keeping the government out of the religion business altogether.
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Exactly
 
#34
#34
"From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776.

I've got a couple more, if you want me to drop them here... I'll be more than happy to espouse facts and reasoning.
 
#35
#35
DC Vol said:
"From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776.
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"Except Muslims, they are horrible tippers" Eric:On religious freedoms in the US 2010
 
#36
#36
g8terh8ter_eric said:
Then explain to me why it's "OK" for the government to be oblivious to the fact that they are creating the environment for another Crusades type war within our own borders?? That's NOT OK, period. In fact, it's quite dumb.
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They aren't creating anything. If your view is one that only Christian religious groups are welcome, then how are you any different than the theocracies that exist across the middle east?

As to the Crusades redux - please! Nobody is advocating lawlessness or conversion to some sort of religious law. Those breaking the law in the name of their religion will get the legal hammer, just as the godless would.
 
#37
#37
DC Vol said:
"From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776.

I've got a couple more, if you want me to drop them here... I'll be more than happy to espouse facts and reasoning.
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Choosing what to believe is not the issue here. People dieing at the hands of the world's most brutal religion, and then allowing them to erect a shine in honor of that is stupid beyond belief. If this country is that stupid, then people deserve what they get. I wonder what some of you will do if that happens, and then your confronted by men with guns talking about, "Well, are you going to convert or die??" What will you do?? It may not happen next week, but I can almost guarantee that it's going to happen at some point in time. Christianity and Islam have NEVER coexisted in one are very long. If you know any history of Jerusalem, you would know this.
 
#38
#38
BigPapaVol said:
They aren't creating anything. If your view is one that only Christian religious groups are welcome, then how are you any different than the theocracies that exist across the middle east?

As to the Crusades redux - please! Nobody is advocating lawlessness or conversion to some sort of religious law. Those breaking the law in the name of their religion will get the legal hammer, just as the godless would.
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No, but when our laws are contradicted by their religious book, who do you think they will ultimately follow?? I've heard a good explanation as to why there are "peaceful" Muslims, and it's mostly because no one has given them a reason not to be non-peaceful yet. When that day comes, and it will come, what are you going to do??
 
#39
#39
g8terh8ter_eric said:
No, but when our laws are contradicted by their religious book, who do you think they will ultimately follow?? I've heard a good explanation as to why there are "peaceful" Muslims, and it's mostly because no one has given them a reason not to be non-peaceful yet. When that day comes, and it will come, what are you going to do??
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They'll follow the laws of the US or be punished just like any other criminal. I don't care what you've heard, we follow the rule of law out of respect for our country and fellow man - not because of our religion. Your view of non-peaceful is true of anyone. Give me the right reason to kick that ass, and I will.
 
#40
#40
BigPapaVol said:
They'll follow the laws of the US or be punished just like any other criminal. I don't care what you've heard, we follow the rule of law out of respect for our country and fellow man - not because of our religion. Your view of non-peaceful is true of anyone. Give me the right reason to kick that ass, and I will.
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We aren't talking about personal reasons here BPV, we are talking about a LARGE group of people that could be stirred up and cause some major issues for your Christian neighbors. Anyone can become violent, but I'm talking about becoming violent based on what you are reading. Every single so-called Christian that has ever become violent against anyone in the name of God, is not a Christian, period. That's what we are in for, it's not the "you offended me" argument, it's the "you offended Muhammad and I must kill you" argument.
 
#41
#41
g8terh8ter_eric said:
We aren't talking about personal reasons here BPV, we are talking about a LARGE group of people that could be stirred up and cause some major issues for your Christian neighbors. Anyone can become violent, but I'm talking about becoming violent based on what you are reading. Every single so-called Christian that has ever become violent against anyone in the name of God, is not a Christian, period. That's what we are in for, it's not the "you offended me" argument, it's the "you offended Muhammad and I must kill you" argument.
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so you have no faith in the laws of the US being able to prevent/deal with these issues?
 
#42
#42
g8terh8ter_eric said:
We aren't talking about personal reasons here BPV, we are talking about a LARGE group of people that could be stirred up and cause some major issues for your Christian neighbors. Anyone can become violent, but I'm talking about becoming violent based on what you are reading. Every single so-called Christian that has ever become violent against anyone in the name of God, is not a Christian, period. That's what we are in for, it's not the "you offended me" argument, it's the "you offended Muhammad and I must kill you" argument.
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I don't buy it in the least. Your assumption that large swaths of the sect are barbaric to their core makes no sense to me. Clearly there are barbaric people of every walk of life, but they don't represent the majority in any walk of life.

I'm simply saying that we all have the capacity for retribution, but that doesn't make us bad people.

You are absolutely advocating eradication of Islam from America, which runs absolutely counter to what we believe of the American way. I don't understand it.
 
#43
#43
utvolpj said:
so you have no faith in the laws of the US being able to prevent/deal with these issues?
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that's what I'm hearing from him. He has no belief that our rule of law can't overcome an internal religious movement. It's crazy talk.
 
#44
#44
BigPapaVol said:
that's what I'm hearing from him. He has no belief that our rule of law can't overcome an internal religious movement. It's crazy talk.
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You've obviously been corrupted BP. Probably typed this while on your prayer rug while facing Mecca.
 
#46
#46
DC Vol said:
I wonder how many Muslims the fear-mongered actually know.
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I don't know very many, but I do know that we, as America, consistently brag about being the beacon on the hill, the virtuous amongst the godless hordes, begging for the tempest tossed, etc, etc, etc; and you can't be that while saying out the other side of your mouth that we're OK with everyone but the Muslims and the Dutch.
 
#47
#47
BigPapaVol said:
I don't know very many, but I do know that we, as America, consistently brag about being the beacon on the hill, the virtuous amongst the godless hordes, begging for the tempest tossed, etc, etc, etc; and you can't be that while saying out the other side of your mouth that we're OK with everyone but the Muslims and the Dutch.
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I don't know of any other "religion" that wants to wipe us off the face of the earth.
 
#48
#48
BigPapaVol said:
I don't know very many, but I do know that we, as America, consistently brag about being the beacon on the hill, the virtuous amongst the godless hordes, begging for the tempest tossed, etc, etc, etc; and you can't be that while saying out the other side of your mouth that we're OK with everyone but the Muslims and the Dutch.
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Nothing is more American than being the Beacon for Hypocrisy.
 
#49
#49
volfanjustin said:
I don't know of any other "religion" that wants to wipe us off the face of the earth.
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I'll say this once:

That sentiment is representative of about, roughly, 5-10% of all Muslims.

To say the entire religion wants to wipe "us" off the face of the Earth is asinine. And who is "us" anyway?
 
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