obama (whatever) he calls himself

[melissa hyberger]

did anyone see how he votes on abortion? the chattanooga times had an artical the other day that showed he has a 0 score from the national right to life. heck his score is worse that hillary's. he voted 3 times against a bill that would protect a baby if it somehow survived an abortion (and believe it or not this has actually happened in botched abortions.) seems to me the dems cant make hide nor hair about the sanctity of life. they all vote today to cut and run from iraq because the loss of American lives is appaling. but they support anyone who says its ok to kill babies. this makes no sense to me. if they think the red states are dead and morals and common sense are dead i think they may be in for a rude awakening in 2008. any republican who can support killing babies i dont believe has a chance to win federal election from the red states. i just wish fred thompson would run for president in 2008. i cant stand any person running so far whether they are dems or repubs. at least fred thompson was someone i could respect......

 

[GAVol]

Unless a true conservative emerges, there are going to be a lot of hard right Republicans forced to hold their nose and decide which moderate - McCain or Giuliani- is more electable.

 

[melissa hyberger]

thats why i wish fred thompson would come out of political exile. he would be someone who could rally the base of the gop.

 

[OWB]

seems to me the dems cant make hide nor hair about the sanctity of life.

That's not true. Just today I took a spider outside and let him live instead of squashing him.

 

[Tenn_Vol_Authority]

Obama is positioning himself for VP. Hillary is the Prez candidate.

John Kasich (Ohio) would be a better candidate than Fred Thompson, imo.

 

[OWB]

seems to me the dems cant make hide nor hair about the sanctity of life. they all vote today to cut and run from iraq because the loss of American lives is appaling. but they support anyone who says its ok to kill babies. this makes no sense to me.

The problem with line of thinking is that it can be turned around and used against you. If Republicans are all about the sanctity of life, why are they so hell bent on war? Bombs and bullets can kill babies too.

 

[melissa hyberger]

i agree with you. but people seem to forget the fact that we are not at war with the people of iraq, but with the fanatics that call the middle east their home. the people killed in a war are sometimes innocent of what their governments stand for. but a baby inside the mothers womb? when you knowingly and willingly take the life of that baby i can think of nothing worse. it goes against nature itself.

 

[First&Tenn]

i agree with you. but people seem to forget the fact that we are not at war with the people of iraq, but with the fanatics that call the middle east their home. the people killed in a war are sometimes innocent of what their governments stand for. but a baby inside the mothers womb? when you knowingly and willingly take the life of that baby i can think of nothing worse. it goes against nature itself.

Those "fanatics" are the people of Iraq.

You tell me that if China came over here to "liberate" us from the government of GWB because of extraordinary rendition, secret prisons, illegal wiretapping of citizens, human rights violations, violations of the Geneva Conventions, etc. that you would greet them with flowers?

It's hard to see that a conquering nation has good intentions when that nation has just accidentally bombed the neighbors you've known since you were 5.

We're generating our own problem there now. That's why over 60% of the country wants to bring our brave men and women home. Besides, it was reported this last week that what little pre-war planning we did have said that we should be down to a presence of 20,000 troops at this point. It's obviously time to at the very least re-think our strategy. Also, sending in more troops is not a valid answer (regardless of whether its the 25,000 he told us or the 50,000 he actually wants).

As for the pro-life, pro-choice argument. I don't know of a single Democrat that wakes up in the morning and says, "I think I'll go kill a baby today." The reason we're pro-choice is that we don't believe in legislating morality. Also, if you outlaw Abortion, you'll have an epidemic of back-alley clinics.

In a perfect world, we'd all be pro-life. In this world in which we live, you have to understand that it's just not up to you to make the tough decisions for millions of other people. If you force a person who is not willing to become a parent, you could be cursing that child to a fate worse than death. Did you happen to read last week about that monster who took his 2 yr old daughter outside and left her to die of hypothermia in the snow?

My stance is far from perfect, but its the only one that makes sense to me in this harsh world.

 

[melissa hyberger]

case in point, i dont know a single republican who wakes up every morning thinking up a new way to dirty up the air, poison the water supply, etc... but the democrates sure do make it sound that way. the only reason you had back ally abortions was because women by the age of 30 had already had 10 or 15 kids by that point in their life. there are to many ways not to get pregenant out there today. there is no excuse for the hundreds of thousands of babies killed in this country every year due to abortion. and if you really want to get technical about it, 9 out of 10 laws in this country come straight from the bible. murder is an abomination to any civilized group of humans. lying, stealing, adultry, the list goes on an on. and guess what? GOD made those rules long before and constitution, bill of rights, or United States even exsisted. our founding fathers used the bible as their guide and rule book when establishing our country's laws. and trying to say that all iraq citizens are fanatics is absurd. that is like saying that every white American belongs to the KKK. keep the war over there in the middle east where it belongs. our country has bled enough. unless you want a 9-11 everyother week in this country. lets take the fight to them. make their people die for awhile. im sick and tired of out troops being bad mouthed by the people in this country. im not implying that you are bad mouthing the troops, but what the congress of this country did yesturday was a knife in the back of every man and woman who wears the uniform of our country.

 

[OWB]

case in point, i dont know a single republican who wakes up every morning thinking up a new way to dirty up the air, poison the water supply, etc... but the democrates sure do make it sound that way. the only reason you had back ally abortions was because women by the age of 30 had already had 10 or 15 kids by that point in their life. there are to many ways not to get pregenant out there today. there is no excuse for the hundreds of thousands of babies killed in this country every year due to abortion. and if you really want to get technical about it, 9 out of 10 laws in this country come straight from the bible. murder is an abomination to any civilized group of humans. lying, stealing, adultry, the list goes on an on. and guess what? GOD made those rules long before and constitution, bill of rights, or United States even exsisted. our founding fathers used the bible as their guide and rule book when establishing our country's laws.

I guess you probably think that raped women should keep their babies too right?

I'll tell you this, making abortion illegal won't stop it from happening. People will go back to coathangers and other methods if forced to do so.

As for our founding fathers using the bible as a guide when writing the consitution, you're misinformed.

 

[melissa hyberger]

no hon, im not misinformed. ive got a degree in american history so i do no what im talking about. and as far as women being raped, been there done that to. if i had ended up pregnant and did not want the child then i would have given it up for adoption, i wouldnt have killed it. the way i was raised two wrongs never make a right. and id rather face GOD as a rape victim than a murder of an innocent baby anyday. and here we sit both of us vol fans. you know as well as i do that you cant play the game without the rule book or else you are gonna have chaos. thats whats wrong with our country today. our leaders are trying to play the game of life but they threw out the rule book(bible). you and i can agree to disagree on many issues and im sure that we will. i dont mean to offend you in any way. its just i have some personal experiance with what we are talking about and i hate to see people make the same mistakes that i have made. we are both proud Americans and Vol fans. in the long run i think that makes us pretty good people......

 

[volinbham]

That's not true. Just today I took a spider outside and let him live instead of squashing him.

Was it a baby spider?

 

[volinbham]

The reason we're pro-choice is that we don't believe in legislating morality.

If you force a person who is not willing to become a parent, you could be cursing that child to a fate worse than death.

Both sides on this issue struggle with consistency in their views.

The idea that an unwanted child is facing a fate worse than death acknowledges that abortion takes a life and the decision is that it is in that child's best interest to not be born. You are making a decision for someone else.

Tell me how that isn't legislating morality???

 

[OWB]

no hon, im not misinformed. ive got a degree in american history so i do no what im talking about.

At a Christian College maybe.. Still, you're wrong. Like I've stated over and over, many of our founding fathers were Deists.

 

[First&Tenn]

Both sides on this issue struggle with consistency in their views.

The idea that an unwanted child is facing a fate worse than death acknowledges that abortion takes a life and the decision is that it is in that child's best interest to not be born. You are making a decision for someone else.

Tell me how that isn't legislating morality???

You do make a good point, and I know that both of our arguments are imperfect.

I'm not legislating morality though. To legislate morality, you have to use legislation to force a moral decision upon a citizen. With our laws the way they are, no one is forced into abortion. We do everything we can as a nation to encourage the alternative.

My main stance on this whole issue is based on the fact that you can't write the perfect law. If you try to outlaw abortion totally, you run into case by case exceptions (life of the mother, rape pregnancies, pregnancies as a result of inbreeding, etc) and the problems associated with back alley abortions (spreading disease, health issues, jailing and trying women who get caught, etc). This makes the most sensible alternative to keep abortion legal, while focusing on ways to keep young women from having to make that choice (birth control, education, adoption assistance programs etc).

I am using morality simply to rationalize and justify my stance, but I would never suggest writing legislation making abortion mandatory in any circumstance.

You are 100% right in the fact that neither side is completely consistent. Of course, if this issue had nice black and white borderlines it probably wouldn't be such a hotly debated topic.

 

[First&Tenn]

At a Christian College maybe.. Still, you're wrong. Like I've stated over and over, many of our founding fathers were Deists.

Thomas Jefferson was a Deist, and I can show you language that he inserted into numerous government documents that will back that up.

 

[melissa hyberger]

jefferson was not the only founding father to write the documents to govern our country. and in many of his writings he does pay tribute and homage to GOD. and why should abortion be any differant from the gay rights issues? our country and government legistlate morality all the time. abortion is one thing you cant go back and fix. once that child is destoyed it is gone forever. what i dont get is most democrates support abortion rights 100%, but they are against capital punishment for convicted murders. its a double standard. why be for killing and innocent child but against killing an adult murderer?

 

[First&Tenn]

Do you purposefully use the term "Democrates" as a veiled insult?

I read an article recently that pointed out Bush's tendency to use Democrat Party as opposed to the correct Democratic Party. This writer theorized that it was a way for him to get under his opposition's skin without being overtly offensive. By using the wrong term consistently, you deny them the respect that they desire (and by all rights are giving you since all Democrats that I know of use the correct Republican Party).

Anyway, while you will see numerous references to God in Jefferson's writings, you'll rarely if ever see Jesus or any other specific religious figure mentioned. Deist = One who believes in God, but doesn't ascribe to any organized religion.

I oppose capital punishment, but not on moral grounds. Life without parole acts as a prolonged death sentence on its own, plus you give the convict a chance to do something positive with what's left of his imprisoned life. One of the founders of one of the big two LA street gangs (I think he founded the Crips, but not sure) went on to write a series of children's books that spoke of the evils of gangs and the joys of Christianity. Plus, it costs more to execute a felon that it does to keep them for life without parole. You should appreciate the fiscal aspect as a Republican.

 

[OWB]

jefferson was not the only founding father to write the documents to govern our country. and in many of his writings he does pay tribute and homage to GOD. and why should abortion be any differant from the gay rights issues? our country and government legistlate morality all the time. abortion is one thing you cant go back and fix. once that child is destoyed it is gone forever. what i dont get is most democrates support abortion rights 100%, but they are against capital punishment for convicted murders. its a double standard. why be for killing and innocent child but against killing an adult murderer?

3 of the most notable men who helped write the constitution Jefferson, Adams and Paine, were all Deist. So was Ben Franklin and a few others.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."[/FONT] - Jefferson

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - Adams

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.[/FONT] - Paine

 

[OWB]

jefferson was not the only founding father to write the documents to govern our country. and in many of his writings he does pay tribute and homage to GOD.

Yes, the God as he understood it. The Deist God of Nature.

 

[OWB]

what i dont get is most democrates support abortion rights 100%, but they are against capital punishment for convicted murders. its a double standard. why be for killing and innocent child but against killing an adult murderer?

I don't support abortion for the purpose of killing babies. I support it because a person should always have control over their own bodies and be allowed to do with it as they please. If you want the government to tell you what you can and can't do when it comes to you as a being, that's fine, enjoy it. That doesn't make people who disagree and think for themselves murderers.

 

[OWB]

why be for killing and innocent child but against killing an adult murderer?

For one, you're acting like an fertilized egg is a 4 year old toddler. There's a difference between discarding an egg and murdering a baby that breathes on it's own.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

Let me know when ya'll solve this one.

 

[TennTradition]

Let me know when ya'll solve this one.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

and if you really want to get technical about it, 9 out of 10 laws in this country come straight from the bible. murder is an abomination to any civilized group of humans. lying, stealing, adultry, the list goes on an on. and guess what? GOD made those rules long before and constitution, bill of rights, or United States even exsisted. our founding fathers used the bible as their guide and rule book when establishing our country's laws.

The last time I checked, lying and adultery are not against the law. Adultery is wrong for the same reason that murder and stealing are wrong, because you are hurting others, not because some outdated book says so. There are times when lying is the best course of action.