Obamacare Survives SCOTUS

#252
#252
Septic said:
Aside from it being a bad solution to begin with, the ACA was hamstringed from the beginning and destined to fail.

When people stop bitching about the cost of health insurance going up and start focusing on how to get the millions of uninsured American's cared for, then perhaps they'll understand what the ACA was intended to do. You can't have cheap insurance and expect to have everyone uncovered. Either everyone has health care 'security' or readily admit that you don't really give a sh*t about millions of people in America.
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But much like welfare, when you have people who PURPOSEFULLY game the system and/or non-compliant, why should normal Americans fund that waste over and over again?
 
#253
#253
AshG said:
Because those who are making heavy use of it have likely had to spend potential savings throughout their lives. One catastrophe can wipe it all out. That's what we're trying to prevent
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By dragging down others is too steep a cost in my books. It's the problem with socialized, and I mean shared costs, all it does is drag everyone down to some level they shouldnt be in.

It's like the saying goes. There is no such thing as bad weather, only poor planning.

Not understanding the risks/consquences is not a valid excuse to infringe upon others lifestyles.

No one knows what's coming. I could get paralyzed tomorrow going to the train station. Doesnt mean others should pay more to provide for me because I didnt save up millions of bucks to cover any eventuality.

All you are doing spreading the cost out is ensuring that even more people cant save up. You are indirectly making more people dependent on the system than otherwise would have been. And if you dont see that as a bad thing we are at an ideological impasse.
 
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#254
#254
LouderVol said:
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All you are doing spreading the cost out is ensuring that even more people cant save up. You are indirectly making more people dependent on the system than otherwise would have been. And if you dont see that as a bad thing we are at an ideological impasse.
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I'm afraid we are at an ideological impasse then. My faith and my understand of the above beloved phrase in the Constitution inform my belief that we exist in a community compact. As Americans, we should want to look out for each other so that the blessings of these inalienable rights truly extend to all her citizens. For my Christian brothers and sisters, our faith requires us to help bear the burden of others who are in a position where they cannot bear the burden themselves.

I don't care that my taxes and insurance costs have likely paid for narcan for an addict or insulin for a homeless person. I'm glad of it. "As you have helped the least of these, so have you helped me."
 
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#255
#255
LouderVol said:
Why didnt the old people save up? HSAs have been around for a while. Its like SS. What was supposed to be supplementary income is instead being relied on as primary income.
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Basically your position is that, tough @%##, someone who has a debilitating accident or gets a chronic disease at age 30 is on their own, without healthcare insurance.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
#256
#256
NorthDallas40 said:
That is the example you want to use in presenting drug cost rises?
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Yes.

NorthDallas40 said:
Remind us all what happened to good old Martin again?
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He went to jail for lying to and defrauding investors, which was completely unrelated to his absolutely legal gouging for Daraprim.


NorthDallas40 said:
GTFO with that hyperbolic BS dude.
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I'm sorry, did you refute something I just said? Hyperbole would suggest I needed to manufacture something so outrageous it couldn't or shouldn't be taken seriously. Both of these things did.
 
#257
#257
AshG said:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I'm afraid we are at an ideological impasse then. My faith and my understand of the above beloved phrase in the Constitution inform my belief that we exist in a community compact. As Americans, we should want to look out for each other so that the blessings of these inalienable rights truly extend to all her citizens. For my Christian brothers and sisters, our faith requires us to help bear the burden of others who are in a position where they cannot bear the burden themselves.

I don't care that my taxes and insurance costs have likely paid for narcan for an addict or insulin for a homeless person. I'm glad of it. "As you have helped the least of these, so have you helped me."
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And I, or anyone can choose to help. That's the difference.

You cant mandate charity, and then play it off as a good deed.

And again it doesnt compute on any level to cripple some because others are already crippled. It's the air mask situation. If you dont first take care of yourself you cant then help someone else. You are creating 2 victims where at worst there would be 1. You have to first allow and ensure people can take care of themselves, before you start placing undue burdens them. Otherwise you are just hurting them. And that's what our system has done. Hurt many millions more in an effort to help some other millions.

Not arguing it's not a good cause and shouldnt be attempted. I am saying we have enough evidence to say this isnt working as intended and we need to reevaluate.

I would much rather teach a man to fish than give him a fish everyday. Helps both people.

When I went thru PT for my knee, I was given crutches. And told to use them, use them properly, and then to stop using them as soon as possible. If i had kept the crutches for too long I would develop a limp. Not because of the injury, or the surgery. But because my muscles learned to depend on the crutch instead of supporting myself. We as a people are addicted to our crutches, and we are crippling ourselves. Nothing I have read anywhere says that is a good thing.

And I dont see anywhere in the bible or our FF papers that says we have to take care of others to the point of doing damage to ourselves or else we are in the wrong.

And as always there is a mile difference between choosing to help others and being forced by the government. So much difference that you are being intellectually dishonest to argue these mandates as a good thing.

Bill gates donates billions to needy kids in Ameriica. Good for him. Government takes away gates money and gives to kids in America, bad on the government. That's the distinction you are avoiding making appeals to emotions.
 
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#258
#258
LouderVol said:
I dont give a crap about Americans because I dont think my health care premium or taxes should be used to cover a government mandated program designed to fail, in your own words? That's a pretty big stretch.

I care. I want long term, sustainable, non government provided, solutions that dont rely on screwing over millions of other americans.

You cant make the safety net argument when you argument circles around the idea of millions of americans relying on it for primary care.
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You can want in one hand and sh*t in the other, see which one fills up first.

Seriously, suggesting that you're OK with what amounts to a unrealistic requirement amounts to you admitting what you stated in the first seven words of your reply. At least you can admit it.
 
#259
#259
Rickyvol77 said:
But much like welfare, when you have people who PURPOSEFULLY game the system and/or non-compliant, why should normal Americans fund that waste over and over again?
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Gaming the system? Like so many are proud of doing with their taxes when the opportunity presents itself?

You're looking to make not having healthcare a result of being lazy, it's not. There are MILLIONS of American's who are hard working and are still a bad diagnosis from bankruptcy due to unaffordable healthcare.
 
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#260
#260
Velo Vol said:
Basically your position is that, tough @%##, someone who has a debilitating accident or gets a chronic disease at age 30 is on their own, without healthcare insurance.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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No. My position is we shouldnt be mandating the finanicial crippling of people because others face worse hardships.

In my perfect world people are able to take care of themselves instead of depending on others. Sure others can and will help, but mandating that help is just wrong.
 
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#261
#261
Velo Vol said:
Basically your position is that, tough @%##, someone who has a debilitating accident or gets a chronic disease at age 30 is on their own, without healthcare insurance.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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He believes in the good work of voluntary charity, and that being required to do so takes the blessing away.

If a person happens to go bankrupt or die waiting on the charity, tough luck. Enjoy the hereafter.
 
#262
#262
Sea Ray said:
You put a significant co-pay on it.
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That's just a different way of saying "you" don't get to have care. With many families, telling an individual that their broken arm visit to the ER is going to cost $5,000 is the same as telling them it's $50,000 - they don't have what they don't have.
 
#263
#263
AshG said:
He believes in the good work of voluntary charity, and that being required to do so takes the blessing away.

If a person happens to go bankrupt or die waiting on the charity, tough luck. Enjoy the hereafter.
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Sounds exactly like what he's trying to say, without having to actually say it.
 
#264
#264
Septic said:
That's just a different way of saying "you" don't get to have care. With many families, telling an individual that their broken arm visit to the ER is going to cost $5,000 is the same as telling them it's $50,000 - they don't have what they don't have.
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Our insurance here has a ER Penalty built in. It's $300 for an ER visit if you're not sent by an urgent care location or if your straight to ER visit doesn't result in hospitalization.

My only issue with that is the lack of 24/7 urgent care centers.
 
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#266
#266
AshG said:
Our insurance here has a ER Penalty built in. It's $300 for an ER visit if you're not sent by an urgent care location or if your straight to ER visit doesn't result in hospitalization.

My only issue with that is the lack of 24/7 urgent care centers.
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With many low income/poor families, it may as well be $3,000 or $30,000.
 
#267
#267
Septic said:
Yes.



He went to jail for lying to and defrauding investors, which was completely unrelated to his absolutely legal gouging for Daraprim.




I'm sorry, did you refute something I just said? Hyperbole would suggest I needed to manufacture something so outrageous it couldn't or shouldn't be taken seriously. Both of these things did.
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Oh BS the Epi and Daraprim cases are extreme and no basis for broad drug legislation. Shkreli offered to speak on behalf of Mylan and it brought flashbacks to when SNL was funny and the skit of Bush trying to endorse McCain.

The bolded is exactly what you did on playing the epi pen example as a broad basis for rising drug costs.
 
#268
#268
Septic said:
You can want in one hand and sh*t in the other, see which one fills up first.

Seriously, suggesting that you're OK with what amounts to a unrealistic requirement amounts to you admitting what you stated in the first seven words of your reply. At least you can admit it.
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At least I can get rid of my own crap, I dont need the government telling me to crap in my hand.

What requirement am I insisting on? That everyone shouldnt pay more? That there are options available that dont rely on stealing from other hard working people.

Can you be real and admit that not everyone on health insurance before ACA was super rich and could easily eat the additional cost increases?

That's the issue, everyone wants to pretend that the system only helps. That there is nothing wrong. That we have to keep attempting something we know doesnt work. That we should just double down because the fix wasnt the fix if was sold to be.

Why not try something different? Mandated personal HSAs. Whatever dollar amount the government decides we have to pay for insurance instead goes into a personal HSA account. Medicare/aid stays there for those that need more. If you want more in the HSA that's tax free. Throw in some government subsidized opt in catostrophic coverage for those under some bracket.

Removes the issue of government and insurance colluding on costs, and mandating guarenteed income for the insurance companies.

I am asking for better. Not for nothing. I am tired of the hysterics about people being left to die on street corners until ACA came around.
 
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#270
#270
LouderVol said:
In my perfect world people are able to take care of themselves instead of depending on others. Sure others can and will help, but mandating that help is just wrong.
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How much in this perfect world should a 30-year-old be allocating per month to healthcare spending/saving?
 
#271
#271
AshG said:
He believes in the good work of voluntary charity, and that being required to do so takes the blessing away.

If a person happens to go bankrupt or die waiting on the charity, tough luck. Enjoy the hereafter.
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We are going to die anyway. Is it worth spending hundreds of thousands of tax payer dollars to keep someone "alive" on a ventilator stuck in a hospital bed for another 5 years? There is a reason the universal coverage nations include a quality of life segment that voids a lot of that end of life coverage. It drags down the system.

I just want a system where that paradigm doesnt exist. Some people needing help doesnt screw over others. I am sorry you cant even process the thought to have a real conversation about it. It's too pie in the sky but the current health care for all proposals are completely grounded in rational measures.
 
#272
#272
Septic said:
That's just a different way of saying "you" don't get to have care. With many families, telling an individual that their broken arm visit to the ER is going to cost $5,000 is the same as telling them it's $50,000 - they don't have what they don't have.
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A $100 co-pay would keep a lot of Medicaid folks from using it regularly
 
#274
#274
Velo Vol said:
How much in this perfect world should a 30-year-old be allocating per month to healthcare spending/saving?
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Whatever they decide is necessary to cover their healthcare costs in the near and long term based on their own health condition and plan options. And the onus is on them to educate their asses on what those costs are like responsible adults.
 
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