Ok let's say we concede the fact that

[sjt18]

You have been far more dogmatic than I in this argument. I have repeatedly conceded - and still do - that you may be correct in your assumptions about the coaching staff. As much as it pains me to consider it, we may find ourselves back at square 1 in a few years.

Sincerely sorry I snapped at you earlier. Hopefully no hard feelings.

I don't think I have been dogmatic as much as a bit frustrated by those who absolutely, positively REFUSE to see any possibility that coaching has anything to do with the issues. If you really look... you can see it.

But, I am certainly in no position to make definitive statements about what coaches should have been able to do this early.

I don't think either of us are trying to do that specifically. I think we are both in a position however to compare what this DC has done to this point relative to what we have seen others do in similar situations.

Four years ago Monte was dependent on Nigel Mitchell-Thornton and Greg King to man the SLB position for him. Lathers was playing injured. Wes Brown and Chris Walker started on the DL with terrible knees. Want to talk slow at CB? Try A Anderson and Art Evans. He did have Berry at S who made a big difference but they finished the season allowing 22 ppg and 318 ypg.

That D had as many roster problems as this one and FAR more injuries to deal with.

I am not saying Jancek SHOULD be Monte Kiffin... but it does provide a comparison. Similarly, Wilcox dealt with a very similar situation or worse in 2010. He allowed 25 ppg and about 380 ypg.

Jancek is currently allowing 32 ppg and well over 400 ypg.

You can keep making comparisons like these and you will keep coming up with a common answer.

Then... you can just watch the performance of the D. It has not been good and much of it is directly related to coaching more than talent.

Nor, am I willing to make any statements about evaluating talent or the comparative play of players who are starting and those who are not. I have to concede that someone who is been coaching football professionally for 20 years or so would have a better sense of that than I.

You can't have that both ways. You can't say this then say, "Oh, but when Jancek gets all these new, more talented players in everything will be fine." If you aren't qualified to make a statement about the performance of current players then you have no business trying to project the performance of HS recruits who may NEVER be as good as advertised or may have their careers limited by something like injury or behavior.

All I have stated on this thread as well as others that it simply too soon to have any sense at all of the capability of this coaching staff.

No. It isn't. There is MORE than enough to have a "sense" of their capabilities but especially their current performance. I agree you cannot make conclusions yet. Maybe Jancek really turns it around starting this week... but he does NEED to turn it around because his unit has FAILED the last 3 weeks.

The coach shot was immature. I do apologize for that.

Me too.:hi:

 

[sjt18]

I don't begrudge folks that are complaining, I guess. For those with a tendency to question the coaches and are nervous after the last three years, the last three games haven't given them far to turn to find questions and concerns. It's been ugly.

I think anyone here would rightfully say we wish the year had unfolded differently. It's just that some feel the past three games is on coaching and now is the time to judge. Others feel that due to the state of the program and the strength of schedule, the jury should remain out.

That's the real heart of the disagreement.

I don't really go with either of those. I think the last 3 games bring us to a time to judge the last 3 games, the progression of the season, and the possible implications of both on the quality of the coaching staff.

I think I have been pretty patient with the O. Losing Worley was a tougher blow than many expected. It is tough to plug in a Fr and have your O which was already a little shaky take on 3 highly ranked and confident teams.

The jury is still out on all of them... but the evidence is coming in. I think the evidence on the O staff is still pretty neutral all things considered. I think the evidence on the DC is pointing toward "not good".

There is still plenty of time for redemption and it really doesn't take a Perry Mason moment. But Jancek has to get his act together right quick or Jones will face a really tough decision.

 

[tm3]

I don't think I have been dogmatic as much as a bit frustrated by those who absolutely, positively REFUSE to see any possibility that coaching has anything to do with the issues.

IMO this is the crux of the entire discussion.

 

[1967vol]

I don't really go with either of those. I think the last 3 games bring us to a time to judge the last 3 games, the progression of the season, and the possible implications of both on the quality of the coaching staff.

I think I have been pretty patient with the O. Losing Worley was a tougher blow than many expected. It is tough to plug in a Fr and have your O which was already a little shaky take on 3 highly ranked and confident teams.

The jury is still out on all of them... but the evidence is coming in. I think the evidence on the O staff is still pretty neutral all things considered. I think the evidence on the DC is pointing toward "not good".

There is still plenty of time for redemption and it really doesn't take a Perry Mason moment. But Jancek has to get his act together right quick or Jones will face a really tough decision.

I think that is a very reasonable assessment.

 

[photovol]

For Butch Jones first 2 years, Vols fans will make every excuse imaginable not to question his coaching ability. The 3rd year will indeed be a different story, hopefully!

 

[sjt18]

For Butch Jones first 2 years, Vols fans will make every excuse imaginable not to question his coaching ability. The 3rd year will indeed be a different story, hopefully!

Maybe. The pattern I have seen going back to 2005 is that you'll have "reasonable wait and see folks" to start that see good and bad.... some more positive, some more negative, but all honestly waiting for something factual to base an opinion on. You'll have another group that's just negative. They'll believe the worst until it's beaten out of them by the club of reality... like a huge winning season or championship.

But most will give a pass and believe only things that allow them to believe greatness is just over the horizon. Year two will hit. If wins don't start coming some of those people will start to get disillusioned. They still won't necessarily be "thinkers" like those who maintained objective neutrality from the start. But their "feelings" will start to turn as their expectations are disappointed. By year three, the pitchforks will come out with these folks. They'll deny they ever really liked the guy or else they'll change their screen name to avoid admitting they were wrong. They will lead the charge of those demanding heads.

The staff did not get as much out of this roster as it could have. This was a 7 win roster if well coached and prepared WITHIN the control of THIS staff. Next year in many ways looks to be tougher. The whole OL will likely be new. All 3 starting LB's in a group without real back ups will be gone. Five or 6 of the top 8 DL's will be gone. Only credible back up at S will be gone. Leading rusher will be gone. QB position will still be in doubt. WR's will still be very young. DB's will still be relatively young and thin. Palardy who has become possibly this team's best player will be gone.

Many of those with their head in the sand now... could be confronted with even worse results next year. Since they aren't really "thinking" about EVERYTHING now... they'll overreact.

Happened twice in the last 8 years or so... very likely to repeat again unless Jones pulls something good off.

 

[knoxvols11]

Auburn had players last year. One thing they didnt have was a QB that was even serviceable. The first and second string QB's weren't even on the roaster. Not to mention Chizzik pulled a Fulmer with his OC hire that was completely opposite of what had been ran there for years and didnt have the QB or players to run the new style offense. Wasn't smart by either Coach knowing they were already on the hotseat. AU had no identity or flow to their offense last season. Take away Chizziks 13-0 his overall record at AU want that great. He benefited having Cam and a very good offense and Nick Fairley and a really solid DLine. AU has had talent, they just needed the right guy. Just like Dooley bring in Sal in a very Hotseat year, they completely switched defensive schemes and didnt have the players to run it. So our last 2 Coach firings came after complete scheme overhaul on one side of the ball or the other. Hopefully the last for a very long time.

I have to agree with this summation.

 

[governmentmule]

i haven't looked at any of these post,all i can say is get a bowl game and lets see what happens come spring,it s all Freaks fault though

 

[SaintLouisVol]

. . . Many of those with their head in the sand now... could be confronted with even worse results next year. Since they aren't really "thinking" about EVERYTHING now... they'll overreact. . .

Overreact? Vol fans? Can't happen.

What I think is interesting that CBJ seems - to me least - to be the kind of guy that will get a longer leash than others might just by carrying on the "hoorah" stuff that he started.

Further, with all the buyout money the University has been parting with in recent years, they may have to extend the leash any way.

Personally, i think he will end up doing well. I don't know if he'll win a national championship in 3-4 years, but I think he'll do well. But, if he struggles, I can easily see him being here 4-5 years at least before there is any serious momentum (other than by the super hardcores) to show him the door.

 

[butchna]

How about we get through THIS season before deciding whether to fire him or not :search:

 

[governmentmule]

Maybe. The pattern I have seen going back to 2005 is that you'll have "reasonable wait and see folks"

what do you think is going to happen ? i do have to say i am on the wait and lets see what will happen crowd

i think that CBJ and company will need 4 years,at least,and we know that isn't going to happen

whether that includes his All American staff or not,is still to be determined

 

[btate]

Bingo. The overwhelming majority of our fan base are just cheerleading sunshine pumpers, who going to blindly support the coach through the first 3-4 years, no matter how bad the results are. Stupidly, they are not willing to hold a coaching staff and athletic department accountable for showing progress at every step along the way.

All you have to do is pull up Auburns last 4 signing classes and pull up the Vols last 4 classes. Is it all coaching? I rest my case

 

[tm3]

I do not have a crystal ball to tell how CBJ will do but I am confident that he will be around at least 4-5 years.

All CDD needed to do to keep his job was to go 6-6 his third year after two losing seasons. Surely CBJ can be at .500 by year 3, even with his questionable staff.

 

[gasguy98]

comparing Auburn versus Tennessee is comparing apples to oranges. Would you "others" not concede the point that it is OK to expect the team to improve or at least "stay the same" and not regress from game to game like they have done for the last three games? Should we not expect their special teams play to at least continue to get better and not worse as the season progresses?

I raised essentially the same question and was repeatedly asked to commit suicide.

Just for asking the question.

Yes, I believe that with an upgrade in coaching we should see better performance on the field. Simple as that.

 

[Sandvol]

All you have to do is pull up Auburns last 4 signing classes and pull up the Vols last 4 classes. Is it all coaching? I rest my case

OK Mr. Rest My Case what you're saying is that if a team does not have a top 10 signing class for 4 straight years they can't be expected to improve over the course of a season with a new coaching staff? Ok, now I understand.

 

[oregonvol]

Bingo. The overwhelming majority of our fan base are just cheerleading sunshine pumpers, who going to blindly support the coach through the first 3-4 years, no matter how bad the results are. Stupidly, they are not willing to hold a coaching staff and athletic department accountable for showing progress at every step along the way.

I don't know if it's the majority or not. Many of the guys I talk to, former players or those who have been season ticket holders for decades, weren't happy with Dooley from the get-go and are willing to look critically at our current staff.

But it is certainly the majority of posters here.

 

[sjt18]

what do you think is going to happen ? i do have to say i am on the wait and lets see what will happen crowd

i think that CBJ and company will need 4 years,at least,and we know that isn't going to happen

whether that includes his All American staff or not,is still to be determined

Just like Dooley. He has one good shot at producing a winner by year 3 to save his job.