Ok let's say we concede the fact that

[sjt18]

I think this is the catch 22 CBJ is in. The starters are struggling but the fall-off at the 2 and 3 deep is so bad, he feels like they give the team no chance.

That would be true... if it was. Saulsberry outplayed McCullers before the injury and by all accounts I have seen is healthy now. J Smith has been outplayed by pretty much every guy that's played DE. JRM is a heat seeking missile and hasn't been "coached up" to give them more speed at LB? Crowder and perhaps other OL's at least deserve a shot. R Jones and Williams have been back now for weeks... but somehow they can't contribute when a D needs speed?

If the DC has failed to get guys ready... that does not mean there aren't guys who could be gotten ready.

He is obligated to try to win every game. It isn't that they are not ready. They are not able. Why else would so many freshmen have played already?

They aren't able to play better than Arkansas State on D? Really?

If he continues to recruit at his current level, I honestly believe a most all of the current roster won't even be on the team in two years.

That's true regardless of how he recruits.

 

[sjt18]

sjt18 I have a question do you think the defense played better earlier in the season and regressed or do you think they played not up to their potential for the entire season?

I think they played close to their max vs USCe and UGA. Those were by far the most impressive efforts of the year. They very much looked like they were coming along and playing faster.

The players have been pretty awful in the last 3 games... but so has the coaching.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

That would be true... if it was. Saulsberry outplayed McCullers before the injury and by all accounts I have seen is healthy now. J Smith has been outplayed by pretty much every guy that's played DE. JRM is a heat seeking missile and hasn't been "coached up" to give them more speed at LB? Crowder and perhaps other OL's at least deserve a shot. R Jones and Williams have been back now for weeks... but somehow they can't contribute when a D needs speed?

If the DC has failed to get guys ready... that does not mean there aren't guys who could be gotten ready.

They aren't able to play better than Arkansas State on D? Really?



That's true regardless of how he recruits.

I think the most relevent question is why YOU aren't the coach at Tennessee?

 

[sjt18]

FWIW, treading water would be little better than regression. Good coaches improve players.

 

[volfan411]

That would be true... if it was. Saulsberry outplayed McCullers before the injury and by all accounts I have seen is healthy now. J Smith has been outplayed by pretty much every guy that's played DE. JRM is a heat seeking missile and hasn't been "coached up" to give them more speed at LB? Crowder and perhaps other OL's at least deserve a shot. R Jones and Williams have been back now for weeks... but somehow they can't contribute when a D needs speed?

If the DC has failed to get guys ready... that does not mean there aren't guys who could be gotten ready.

They aren't able to play better than Arkansas State on D? Really?



That's true regardless of how he recruits.

Not sure position players not being ready is on the DC as much as it is on their respective position coaches. I heard the other day that While R Jones was out he could not do anything including conditioning and that he had to get back into playing shape. I believe we will see more of him in the last few games.

 

[sjt18]

I think the most relevent question is why YOU aren't the coach at Tennessee?

Right. If you can't defend a point with reason or facts or anything approaching a civil discussion... just take shots at the other guy and try to start an argument.

No. I guess the better question is why YOU aren't a coach at UT. You'd be able to handle the pressers with some fine excuses.

 

[volfan411]

I think they played close to their max vs USCe and UGA. Those were by far the most impressive efforts of the year. They very much looked like they were coming along and playing faster.

The players have been pretty awful in the last 3 games... but so has the coaching.

I think so to I think we saw improvement on the defense from game one to the the SC game and then it is like they hit a brick wall. I have to believe it is a mixture of depth, talent, culture and coaching. And to define what I mean by coaching is the coaches learning how to coach throught the adversity that they have faced the last few games. There is no doubt the team laid down and player uninspired football on defense. I am sure as a coach that is tough circumstances to work through.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

Right. If you can't defend a point with reason or facts or anything approaching a civil discussion... just take shots at the other guy and try to start an argument.

No. I guess the better question is why YOU aren't a coach at UT. You'd be able to handle the pressers with some fine excuses.

You have been far more dogmatic than I in this argument. I have repeatedly conceded - and still do - that you may be correct in your assumptions about the coaching staff. As much as it pains me to consider it, we may find ourselves back at square 1 in a few years.

But, I am certainly in no position to make definitive statements about what coaches should have been able to do this early. Nor, am I willing to make any statements about evaluating talent or the comparative play of players who are starting and those who are not. I have to concede that someone who is been coaching football professionally for 20 years or so would have a better sense of that than I.

All I have stated on this thread as well as others that it simply too soon to have any sense at all of the capability of this coaching staff.

For each criticism raised, I have simply offered another possibility.

The coach shot was immature. I do apologize for that.

 

[Sandvol]

Wait a minute... Are you changing the point in contest? I thought the point was about regression. At least, that's what it was about when I made it.

The point being: UT has struggled all year against spread/option rushing offenses. If that be the case, struggling early, and struggling late would not be regression.

Secondarily, if UT's talent is especially susceptible to this offense, and Oregon pointed it out for those that followed, it may make sense that other defenses that aren't as susceptible to it (perhaps less talented, but built to stop that type of speed), may perform better against it.

But that's a red herring to my point. Struggling early, and struggling late, does not equal "regression".

"The point being: UT has struggled all year against spread/option rushing offenses. If that be the case, struggling early, and struggling late would not be regression."......the point being you keep avoiding the special teams issue.

 

[volfan411]

"The point being: UT has struggled all year against spread/option rushing offenses. If that be the case, struggling early, and struggling late would not be regression."......the point being you keep avoiding the special teams issue.

I think the struggles against the spread have more to do with speed and talent. I know there are some who refuse to believe that but to me it is the only logical answer.

As I asked above if you beleive the team improved from game one to the SC game as I do then the staff showed signs of making the defense better. I have no good explanantion for the last 3 games other than it is a combination of all the obvious problems we have.

I have no explanantion for the special teams break downs and would have to agree that group has regressed from game one to now.

 

[Sandvol]

I think the struggles against the spread have more to do with speed and talent. I know there are some who refuse to believe that but to me it is the only logical answer.

As I asked above if you beleive the team improved from game one to the SC game as I do then the staff showed signs of making the defense better. I have no good explanantion for the last 3 games other than it is a combination of all the obvious problems we have.

I have no explanantion for the special teams break downs and would have to agree that group has regressed from game one to now.

If I were on your side of the argument I would say since Coach Jones coaches special teams mostly and he has been more distracted by having to use a freshman quarterback and this has taken more of his time and energy then because of this special teams has suffered. This is the only plausible explanation.

 

[volfan411]

If I were on your side of the argument I would say since Coach Jones coaches special teams mostly and he has been more distracted by having to use a freshman quarterback and this has taken more of his time and energy then because of this special teams has suffered. This is the only plausible explanation.

That is as good as any I have heard.

In reality I believe this staff has had to learn to coach in the SEC and this schedule has been brutal on them. Even SA gave them all they wanted in a game that should have been one that they could relax a little in. I think that is why they played and coached their best game of the year after the first bye week as it allowed everyone to catch their breath. I hope we get the same kind of energy and effort after this break and finish the season on a high note.

 

[Sandvol]

That is as good as any I have heard.

In reality I believe this staff has had to learn to coach in the SEC and this schedule has been brutal on them. Even SA gave them all they wanted in a game that should have been one that they could relax a little in. I think that is why they played and coached their best game of the year after the first bye week as it allowed everyone to catch their breath. I hope we get the same kind of energy and effort after this break and finish the season on a high note.

The problem with this is that if true would show a weakness in the staff, i.e. Jones can't be everywhere at once or believing he has to be everywhere at once. Is he not confident enough to delegate authority, etc? Our opponents will continue to exploit those weaknesses if he doesn't recognize and fix.

 

[tm3]

The problem with this is that if true would show a weakness in the staff, i.e. Jones can't be everywhere at once or believing he has to be everywhere at once. Is he not confident enough to delegate authority, etc? Our opponents will continue to exploit those weaknesses if he doesn't recognize and fix.

and given that one of the touted features of the greatest staff in america is their experience in working together and cohesiveness, this should not even be on the radar as a possibility.

 

[Orange_Crush]

"The point being: UT has struggled all year against spread/option rushing offenses. If that be the case, struggling early, and struggling late would not be regression."......the point being you keep avoiding the special teams issue.

I apologize. I thought we were talking about the last three games, which didn't, as a whole, show a regression in the special teams. I didn't know that we were judging the entire staff and team on one aspect of one game.

But I'll give it a shot.

Geez... They had an awful gave on special teams against Auburn. That hurt to watch.

With that said, am I to understand that you are now hinging your argument about the staff's coaching acumen on one aspect of one game? Is that where you've gone with this?

I guess Frank Beamer's reputation as a special teams guru was misplaced since their special teams killed them in one game back in August:

For the first time in Coach Frank Beamer’s 27-year tenure, the Hokies allowed a kickoff return for a touchdown, a punt-return touchdown and an interception return for a touchdown in the same game. It was “Beamer Ball” at its worst, and the Crimson Tide cruised to a 35-10 victory at the sold-out stadium.

He followed up:

Beamer said after the game the two special teams breakdowns were the result of using too many young players on his once-vaunted unit, and noted he would “absolutely” consider playing more veterans going forward.

“It’s no excuse. We’re gonna evaluate our personnel,” Beamer said. “The points that we gave them, it shouldn’t happen in a ballgame. Those were critical.”

So, if you want to hinge an entire argument on one aspect of one game-- knock yourself out. But if we lower ourselves to that, the resumes of a lot of coaches will prove they are horrible coaches.

:hi:

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

I apologize. I thought we were talking about the last three games, which didn't, as a whole, show a regression in the special teams. I didn't know that we were judging the entire staff and team on one aspect of one game.

But I'll give it a shot.

Geez... They had an awful gave on special teams against Auburn. That hurt to watch.

With that said, am I to understand that you are now hinging your argument about the staff's coaching acumen on one aspect of one game? Is that where you've gone with this?

I guess Frank Beamer's reputation as a special teams guru was misplaced since their special teams killed them in one game back in August:



He followed up:



So, if you want to hinge an entire argument on one aspect of one game-- knock yourself out. But if we lower ourselves to that, the resumes of a lot of coaches will prove they are horrible coaches.

:hi:

I just appears now that people are looking for reasons to complain and dog out the coaching staff. As we have all stated before that the stated goal before the season was to make it to a bowl game. For some, that is not good enough, that is setting the bar too low. I beg to differ! When you have not been to a bowl game in several years, that shows progression and steps in the right direction. I find it completely asinine that arm chair quarterbacks are judging the staff and this season BEFORE the season is even over with. And then they say we were embarrassed by 3 top 10 teams. NEWSFLASH we are not that good....yet! This is a six win team....seven or eight wins would be really overachieving. Nine or ten would have been insane. The people that are getting all riled up are delusional...maybe they need another past time.

 

[Burger]

"The point being: UT has struggled all year against spread/option rushing offenses. If that be the case, struggling early, and struggling late would not be regression."......the point being you keep avoiding the special teams issue.

So after playing against Alabama and Mizzou 2 weeks ago and the week before while playing too many plays in both, were not going to suffer the consequences of no depth. We were tired by the time we had Auburn. We have no heart, and no depth? Butch has done all he could this year about both of those.

 

[Orange_Crush]

So after playing against Alabama and Mizzou 2 weeks ago and the week before while playing too many plays in both, were not going to suffer the consequences of no depth. We were tired by the time we had Auburn. We have no heart, and no depth? Butch has done all he could this year about both of those.

We could also add the concept that harping on the ST play during the Auburn game undermines the argument that the defense was that much worse, since the ST breakdown created points and short fields. Add offensive incompetence with a 3rd/4th string freshman QB, and one could say the D has been strained and overworked...

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

We could also add the concept that harping on the ST play during the Auburn game undermines the argument that the defense was that much worse, since the ST breakdown created points and short fields. Add offensive incompetence with a 3rd/4th string freshman QB, and one could say the D has been strained and overworked...

Now you know if Gus Malzhan or Nick Saban were here, the players wouldn't get tired AND we would have depth because those two coaches work outside of OUR reality. They are modern day miracle workers!!!! I saw Nick Saban walk through a hurricane and not even get wet. Gus Malzhan operated on a puppy with a pair of tweezers, a number 2 pencil, and some chewing gum....

 

[Orange_Crush]

I just appears now that people are looking for reasons to complain and dog out the coaching staff. As we have all stated before that the stated goal before the season was to make it to a bowl game. For some, that is not good enough, that is setting the bar too low. I beg to differ! When you have not been to a bowl game in several years, that shows progression and steps in the right direction. I find it completely asinine that arm chair quarterbacks are judging the staff and this season BEFORE the season is even over with. And then they say we were embarrassed by 3 top 10 teams. NEWSFLASH we are not that good....yet! This is a six win team....seven or eight wins would be really overachieving. Nine or ten would have been insane. The people that are getting all riled up are delusional...maybe they need another past time.

I don't begrudge folks that are complaining, I guess. For those with a tendency to question the coaches and are nervous after the last three years, the last three games haven't given them far to turn to find questions and concerns. It's been ugly.

I think anyone here would rightfully say we wish the year had unfolded differently. It's just that some feel the past three games is on coaching and now is the time to judge. Others feel that due to the state of the program and the strength of schedule, the jury should remain out.

That's the real heart of the disagreement.

 

[Sandvol]

I apologize. I thought we were talking about the last three games, which didn't, as a whole, show a regression in the special teams. I didn't know that we were judging the entire staff and team on one aspect of one game.

But I'll give it a shot.

Geez... They had an awful gave on special teams against Auburn. That hurt to watch.

With that said, am I to understand that you are now hinging your argument about the staff's coaching acumen on one aspect of one game? Is that where you've gone with this?

I guess Frank Beamer's reputation as a special teams guru was misplaced since their special teams killed them in one game back in August:



He followed up:



So, if you want to hinge an entire argument on one aspect of one game-- knock yourself out. But if we lower ourselves to that, the resumes of a lot of coaches will prove they are horrible coaches.

:hi:

"Geez... They had an awful gave on special teams against Auburn. That hurt to watch.".....awful on special teams? How about the worst performance ever in the history of NCAA football. And, no I don't agree with your premise it was only for one game. You could see the cracks appearing two games before that. But, if you don't believe special teams are important just re-read Neyland's Maxims. My contention is if he trusted his assistant coaches to work with the freshman quarterback and he devotes even more time to special teams then maybe our performance improves in that area even more and we cause more turnovers like the Georgia game and change the psychology of the game. In my opinion special teams are the most important area to concentrate on for a new coaching staff because it can have such a huge and immediate impact on the program and on the games and set the tone for the games. Dominant special teams play can strike fear into the hearts of the opponents-i.e. get into their heads.

 

[Orange_Crush]

"Geez... They had an awful gave on special teams against Auburn. That hurt to watch.".....awful on special teams? How about the worst performance ever in the history of NCAA football. And, no I don't agree with your premise it was only for one game. You could see the cracks appearing two games before that. But, if you don't believe special teams are important just re-read Neyland's Maxims. My contention is if he trusted his assistant coaches to work with the freshman quarterback and he devotes even more time to special teams then maybe our performance improves in that area even more and we cause more turnovers like the Georgia game and change the psychology of the game. In my opinion special teams are the most important area to concentrate on for a new coaching staff because it can have such a huge and immediate impact on the program and on the games and set the tone for the games. Dominant special teams play can strike fear into the hearts of the opponents-i.e. get into their heads.

Show the stats over the past three games. We'll discuss these "cracks". AU was the first time I've noticed a particularly egregious ST play.




So, when I said that the ST failures put too much pressure on the defense, you somehow interpreted that to mean that I don't believe ST to be important?

You, sir, have an odd way of interpretation.

 

[Sandvol]

Show the stats over the past three games. We'll discuss these "cracks". AU was the first time I've noticed a particularly egregious ST play.




So, when I said that the ST failures put too much pressure on the defense, you somehow interpreted that to mean that I don't believe ST to be important?

You, sir, have an odd way of interpretation.

Mercy, didn't you see Christian Jones running up and down the field during the Alabama game on punt returns? So it has to get particularly egregious before you notice it? Like setting NCAA records egregious? I find that odd.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Mercy, didn't you see Christian Jones running up and down the field during the Alabama game on punt returns? So it has to get particularly egregious before you notice it? Like setting NCAA records egregious? I find that odd.

lol... What are you looking for? Negative return yards against the #1 & #8 teams in the country? There is a middle ground that one would expect from a team in a rebuilding year.

AU was particularly egregious. Bama was suspect.

What do you want me to do, wring my hands an freak out every time they don't play like a top 10 team in every facet of the game?


Oh... Wait. That is exactly what you want folks to do.

 

[Sandvol]

"What do you want me to do, wring my hands an freak out every time they don't play like a top 10 team in every facet of the game?".....you're on to something there.