OK, TD or not TD, that is the question....

[WriterVol]

He lost control when his right hand comes off the ball, you can tell it wasn't him switching to his left hand because the force of his right hand slipping moved his hand almost all the way to his left elbow.

It was a fumble, it was clear as day, your arm does not move that way if you're switching the ball purposely. After his hand slips off, the ball control is lost, and what you're seeing is him trying to regain possession. Even when he hits the ground, the first hing he does is try to get up and find the ball, but it's already out of bounds.

He fumbled, he knew he fumbled, it's not debatable to anyone who knows anything about sports. Once his right hand comes off, you even see the trajectory of the ball change. That = loss of control

I don't see the trajectory change until after it crosses the goal. His wrist flicks downward, and that's the first time the trajectory of the ball follows any path other than the one his hand is also on.

It is not possible, in my opinion, to tell whether his fingers are truly gripping the ball or if they are merely trying to grip the ball. A grip is certainly possible in that configuration.

 

[WriterVol]

You are requesting two different things. You say you want an image that shows when the ball separates from his fingers to prove that he didn't have possession. But that's a logical fallacy because he could lose possession even while touching the ball; and that's exactly what happened. He lost his grip on the ball, thus losing possession, but had his fingertips on top of the ball for an instant longer.

But even with his fingertips, it is possible to still have a grip on the ball. I can grasp a football on its end and control it, and I'm not a college receiver with gloves on.

I am well aware that he can lose control and still be touching the ball. But the onus is on the replay to indisputably show that he had lost his grip. The video evidence does not support this indisputably. Again the trajectory of the ball follows the hand until after the ball crosses the goal line.

That's why I asked for someone to point me to the frame where control is indisputably lost. Even Gary Danielson took a moment to wonder if the ball was still in his grip before expressing the opinion of a touch back.

 

[UT_Tix79]

Coach Butch Jones called it a fumble
Pig Howard called it a fumble
Bob Kesling called it a fumble
Both CBS analysts called it a fumble
Brent Hubbs called it a fumble
Paul Fortenberry called it a fumble
Doc, Jeff, and Heather called it a fumble
Paul Ryan called it a fumble
Rocky Goode (head of SEC officials) called it a fumble
The replay official called it a fumble
Wes Rucker called it a fumble
The 247 TN site called it a fumble
THe panel of 5 ESPN experts all called it a fumble
The replayed it on the NFl game Monday night, and they called it a fumble
They replayed it on College Football Live, and all 3 experts called it a fumble
They played it on sports talk, and all 5 analysts called it a fumble

So what you're saying, is that you see something that no one else see's, no experts that know anything about football are questioning the call, our own biased TN media aren't questioning the call, just a couple of our fans...

Seems Legit

 

[Boca Vol]

The only thing I asked was if anyone could point me to the frame where control is clearly lost before the ball crosses the plane. So far, I haven't seen it.

To orangeslice's ref friend's point, I'm just not seeing the indisputable frame in the sequence. That is, until you see the ball separate from his fingers after it's across the line.

Again, it's an academic matter, and means nothing anymore in the real world.

You are correct WriterVol! Good eye! It never leaves the hand until after the plane is broken. I don't see any basis to claim possession has been lost until the ball separates after the plane - much less indisputable evidence.

He fumbled after the goal is reached. Any idea that he lost control of the ball in the air is conjecture - not in evidence. I'm amazed how few see that.

Both of you, hold your left hand straight out in front of you slightly below chin level. Now turn your left hand slightly left about a 30 degree angle. Now spread your fingers slightly and place a football under your hand. Can you hold it?...NO!

 

[Vols520]

So we have 52 mouth breathers up in here?

 

[Boca Vol]

So we have 52 mouth breathers up in here?

And window lickers.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

So we have 52 mouth breathers up in here?

Some find great comfort in denial.

 

[Tidebacker]

I don't really have a dog in the fight, but why does everyone assume Georgia would not have scored a touchdown in their OT possession if the fumble had not been called? Your guys played a heck of game and you every reason to be excited because it is obvious from the outside looking in that UT is improving. UGA played for the FG because they it is all they needed.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

I don't really have a dog in the fight, but why does everyone assume Georgia would not have scored a touchdown in their OT possession if the fumble had not been called? Your guys played a heck of game and you every reason to be excited because it is obvious from the outside looking in that UT is improving. UGA played for the FG because they it is all they needed.

I don't think everyone assumes they wouldn't have, but in moments like this you know fans are going to say it cost us the game.

It's like the 1999 Super Bowl, I still hear people describe it all the time as "We came within 1 yard of winning the Super Bowl"; actually no, we didn't, we came within a yard of tying, assuming we got the PAT.

 

[WriterVol]

Both of you, hold your left hand straight out in front of you slightly below chin level. Now turn your left hand slightly left about a 30 degree angle. Now spread your fingers slightly and place a football under your hand. Can you hold it?...NO!

There's a still picture of the "grip" Pig has on the ball from the other side of the field, and it is certainly a plausible grip from the picture, especially while he's moving forward. Two fingers are under the ball. His thumb is on the other side. Two more fingers are on the side/top.

Again, people, this isn't denial. This is an academic question as to when the video showed indisputably that his control is gone. So far, the only 100% convincing frame is the one immediately after the ball crosses the plane.

Do I think he fumbled before crossing the plane? Probably. But I still can't find a frame that 100% satisfies the criteria supposedly necessary to overturn a call on the field. That's all in saying.

 

[WriterVol]

I don't think everyone assumes they wouldn't have, but in moments like this you know fans are going to say it cost us the game.

It's like the 1999 Super Bowl, I still hear people describe it all the time as "We came within 1 yard of winning the Super Bowl"; actually no, we didn't, we came within a yard of tying, assuming we got the PAT.

I'm, personally, not assuming anything. I know full well that Georgia's strategy would have been more aggressive.

I also agree with you on the Titans Super Bowl appearance. I'm usually a stickler for those kinds of details, which is why this fumble play has me so intrigued.

 

[Tnrdgerunr]

I don't agree with all that either, because once he leaves his feet he lets go of the ball with the right hand, and reaches for the goal line with the ball in his left hand.

Good Lord even your own radio play by play guy called it before the play was even reviewed. He called it as soon as it happened. It was a tough break but the right call. But it didn't mean you would have won anyway, Ga would have tried to score a TD instead of just making sure they could kick a FG. It would have kept you from losing but doesn't mean you would have won.

 

[tomq_123]

Personally the following 2 photo's lead me to believe it's inconclusive. The first photo shows the ball "seems" to be still in his left hand as he reaches the goal line. If you watch the video he switches the ball from the right to his left just before he reaches for the goal line. The 2nd photo he clearly has lost control of the ball but he is past the goal line. So, in my opinion it's inconclusive.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

To me the problem with just looking at stills is you aren't seeing the motion of the ball or the players. In the first picture, in real time, the ball already appears to be coming out. And even looking at that picture in still form, I have a hard time believing in real time he's got control of that ball with how it's in his hand.

Trying to hold the ball like that just standing still would be very hard to do, so adding in he's diving at full speed and getting hit, you're getting into the impossible.

 

[tomq_123]

To me the problem with just looking at stills is you aren't seeing the motion of the ball or the players. In the first picture, in real time, the ball already appears to be coming out. And even looking at that picture in still form, I have a hard time believing in real time he's got control of that ball with how it's in his hand.

Trying to hold the ball like that just standing still would be very hard to do, so adding in he's diving at full speed and getting hit, you're getting into the impossible.

I don't know Pig but being the athlete that he is I would assume he has played some basketball and knows how to palm a ball. A football seems to be easier to palm than a basketball and it looks to me that is exactly what he is trying to do. Again, I'm just saying to me it still look inconclusive and not enough to overturn to call on the field.

At this point it doesn't really matter, it will never change anything. Like the PI call in the endzone and some of the other questionable calls towards the end of the game it does look like the refs are protecting a possible National Championship team.

 

[UT_Tix79]

I don't know Pig but being the athlete that he is I would assume he has played some basketball and knows how to palm a ball. A football seems to be easier to palm than a basketball and it looks to me that is exactly what he is trying to do. Again, I'm just saying to me it still look inconclusive and not enough to overturn to call on the field.

At this point it doesn't really matter, it will never change anything. Like the PI call in the endzone and some of the other questionable calls towards the end of the game it does look like the refs are protecting a possible National Championship team.

I'm sure Pig does know how to palm a ball, but Pig himself, the guy who you are argueing for, stated that "his hand slipped off the ball as he braced for impact and he just lost it after that"

So, how can you argue that he was doing something totally different than the player himself says happened? I just don't get it

 

[tomq_123]

I'm sure Pig does know how to palm a ball, but Pig himself, the guy who you are argueing for, stated that "his hand slipped off the ball as he braced for impact and he just lost it after that"

So, how can you argue that he was doing something totally different than the player himself says happened? I just don't get it

I didn't know Pig said that. I stand corrected.

 

[Spartacavolus]

not many ball carriers have possession of the ball while holding the very end as the rest of the ball is headed to the ground after holding differently moments before. It's called losing control of the football. This whole finger/thumb argument has been silly for even vn standards.

 

[Septic]

nope... clearly fumbled..

The touchback fumble rule....I just learned about that in yesterdays game!

Holy crap, do you not recall Cory Anderson's fumble against Alabama in '05?!

 

[WriterVol]

not many ball carriers have possession of the ball while holding the very end as the rest of the ball is headed to the ground after holding differently moments before. It's called losing control of the football. This whole finger/thumb argument has been silly for even vn standards.

Not many does not equal none.

While the game is over and the result won't change, I only ever wanted to dissect the minutia of what goes into overturning a call on the field. It was an interesting exercise.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

:ermm: We all know it's not possible for FB players to hold the ball from the end and control it....oh, wait!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TS5P5s3v_c[/youtube]

 

[Spartacavolus]

Not many does not equal none.

While the game is over and the result won't change, I only ever wanted to dissect the minutia of what goes into overturning a call on the field. It was an interesting exercise.

Then I will correct myself and say no ballcarriers have control of the football when parallel to the ground and holding the ball with 2 fingers on the back end after losing control of it.

 

[Spartacavolus]

:ermm: We all know it's not possible for FB players to hold the ball from the end and control it....oh, wait!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/v/8TS5P5s3v_c[/youtube]

You realize the player said he lost control? Or will you guys argue with him as well.

 

[bamawriter]

You realize the player said he lost control? Or will you guys argue with him as well.

Pig Howard is just another gullible sheep.

 

[KBVol]

Cant speak for everyone else, but what I saw was the ball come out after it broke the plane of the goal line.

He was touching the ball when the tip of the ball breached the goal line.....however, he in no way had control of it, which is what was required for it to be a TD. It was a fumble.