ONE hurdle Heupel needs to clear to be an all time great Tennessee coach

[LegionnaireOfTheMiserable]

My issue isn't with Johnny. Guys who stab other guys in the back aren't my idea of great anything.

152 win and a national championship speak for themselves. You don’t have to like him, but you sound foolish if you deny that Fulmer is one of our best coaches ever.

Also keep in mind that Majors had his best run at UT only after he made Fulmer the OC.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

152 win and a national championship speak for themselves. You don’t have to like him, but you sound foolish if you deny that Fulmer is one of our best coaches ever.

Also keep in mind that Majors had his best run at UT only after he made Fulmer the OC.

Given how it went down, had there been a regular coaching search at UT to replace Majors, I'm skeptical Fulmer gets the job.

There were lots of good coaches in college in the early 90s and UT was plum position. Bowden, Slocum, off the top of my head.

That's my thing. It's not that Fulmer didn't run with the job once he got it, but I'm truly not convinced an above board coaching search would've given us Phil Fulmer to replace Johnny.

 

[LegionnaireOfTheMiserable]

Given how it went down, had there been a regular coaching search at UT to replace Majors, I'm skeptical Fulmer gets the job.

There were lots of good coaches in college in the early 90s and UT was plum position. Bowden, Slocum, off the top of my head.

That's my thing. It's not that Fulmer didn't run with the job once he got it, but I'm truly not convinced an above board coaching search would've given us Phil Fulmer to replace Johnny.

Bobby Bowden wasn’t leaving Florida State. If you’re talking about Terry Bowden, he was a worse coach than Phil. And Slocum was a worse coach than Phil too. Phil would have been very highly sought after if we hadn’t promoted him.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Bobby Bowden wasn’t leaving Florida State. If you’re talking about Terry Bowden, he was a worse coach than Phil. And Slocum was a worse coach than Phil too. Phil would have been very highly sought after if we hadn’t promoted him.

Certainly Slocum put several guys in the NFL from aTm when they were little brother. Given UT resources, he might very well have done more than Phil.

My main point is Phil Fulmer didn't come by the job honestly. The behind the scenes hack job on Coach Majors gave him the job and he did very well with it but there's no honor there.

 

[Power_Sweep_Vol]

Please...Fulmer was going to be a head coach in 1993 either at UT or somewhere else. Key boosters went to him and gauged his interest and then started the process to run Majors out. But most of that was Majors' fault as his goodwill account with the key folks was overdrawn at the time. Could Fulmer have been loyal and said, "No...I have no interest...Johnny is still your guy"? Yep...but that's not very realistic. He was hired to take UT to the next level and did so,

RC Slocum comparisons should be embarrassing to make but some folks will do anything to tear down Phil.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Please...Fulmer was going to be a head coach in 1993 either at UT or somewhere else. Key boosters went to him and gauged his interest and then started the process to run Majors out. But most of that was Majors' fault as his goodwill account with the key folks was overdrawn at the time. Could Fulmer have been loyal and said, "No...I have no interest...Johnny is still your guy"? Yep...but that's not very realistic. He was hired to take UT to the next level and did so,

RC Slocum comparisons should be embarrassing to make but some folks will do anything to tear down Phil.

Phil spent 10+ years as an assistant and no one came for him.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Certainly Slocum put several guys in the NFL from aTm when they were little brother. Given UT resources, he might very well have done more than Phil.

My main point is Phil Fulmer didn't come by the job honestly. The behind the scenes hack job on Coach Majors gave him the job and he did very well with it but there's no honor there.

You hear this from time to time in this fan base. Phil Fulmer "backstabbed" Johnny Majors.

No. No sir.

(a) Johnny Majors backstabbed Johnny Majors, by drinking a bit too much a bit too frequently. When the leadership of the University noticed, the clock started ticking.
(b) Johnny Majors' heart backstabbed Johnny Majors. When Johnny suddenly needed quintuple bypass surgery in August of 1992, that put him in the wings for a few weeks.
(c) Fulmer's coaching talent backstabbed Johnny. During those few weeks Majors was recovering from surgery, Phil Fulmer led the team on a 3-0 streak that included wins over #4 Florida and #14 Georgia. The university leadership noticed.
(d) Johnny's inconsistent coaching skills backstabbed Johnny. When he came back, Majors led the team to mixed results, beating LSU but then losing to Arkansas, Alabama, and South Carolina in rapid succession.

Majors wasn't fired after the South Carolina game, but the damage had been done. A few weeks later, at the end of the regular season, the University announced that Johnny was out, and Phil was in.

Blaming Fulmer for Majors' drinking, his heart condition, and his inconsistent results as a head coach is just ludicrous.

The only time Phil Fulmer showed less than 100% loyalty to Johnny Majors was this: when the University came to him and said they were firing Johnny and did he want to be the new head coach of the Vols, he said "yes." That's it.

Everything else is rumor, redirection and horribly bad logic.

Go Vols!


p.s. To circle back to the original topic of this thread, there are only two things Josh Heupel needs to do to go down in history as one of our two greatest coaches: (a) continue to lead the program with the same values he has displayed thus far, and (b) win championships. That's it. Now, to be regarded as THE best coach in Vols history, he is gonna have to do a lot of (b). A lot. Wouldn't that be a hoot. Go Vols!

 

[Volnanza]

He's done exactly what he has needed to do. We are one of 12 teams that have complete control over our own destiny. We don't need to depend on X beating Y, just take care of business for 4 games. It All sounds so simple.

 

[Power_Sweep_Vol]

Phil spent 10+ years as an assistant and no one came for him.

It may surprise you that assistants who are not coordinators almost never get hired for top 25 type coaching jobs. Fulmer was an OC for all of 3 seasons prior to 1992, and was highly regarded. He was going to be a head coach in 1993 which created the urgency amongst many boosters and the admin to make sure that he was a HC here, and obviously we were better for it.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

You hear this from time to time in this fan base. Phil Fulmer "backstabbed" Johnny Majors.

No. No sir.

(a) Johnny Majors backstabbed Johnny Majors, by drinking a bit too much a bit too frequently. When the leadership of the University noticed it, the clock started ticking.
(b) Johnny Majors' heart backstabbed Johnny Majors. When Johnny suddenly needed quintuple bypass surgery in August of 1992, that put him in the wings for a few weeks.
(c) Fulmer's coaching talent backstabbed Johnny. During those few weeks Majors was recovering from surgery, Phil Fulmer led the team on a 3-0 streak that included wins over #4 Florida and #14 Georgia. The university leadership noticed.
(d) Johnny's inconsistent coaching skills backstabbed Johnny. When he came back, Majors led the team to mixed results, beating LSU but then losing to Arkansas, Alabama, and South Carolina in rapid succession.

Majors wasn't fired after the South Carolina game, but the damage had been done. A few weeks later, at the end of the regular season, the University announced that Johnny was out, and Phil was in.

The only way in which Phil Fulmer showed less than 100% devotion to Johnny Majors was this: when the University came to him and said they were firing Johnny and did he want to be the new head coach of the Vols, he said "yes." That's it.

Everything else is rumor and redirection.

Go Vols!

Johnny drank when he got to UT. It wasn't new and like Bear, it wasn't unusual for the era.

Johnny's heart issues were being dealt with as well as possible for that era. Choosing Fulmer as an interim made sense.

I've said Fulmer ran with the job and did it well but where was the coaching search? Basically it was a back room decision from movers and shakers in the program.

Johnny didn't do well after coming back and a major bypass surgery was a huge deal then and he SHOULD have let Fulmer, who was having success, finish the season so he could recover.

Loyalty comes up a lot around here. We can disagree about whether UT was loyal to Johnny Majors and whether Phil Fulmer was loyal to Johnny Majors.

I'll not disagree about Fulmer's coaching but I'll say his negative effects on the program via how he took the coaching job and how he botched the AD job outweigh, for me, his positive effects on UT, even with the Natty.

 

[LegionnaireOfTheMiserable]

Phil spent 10+ years as an assistant and no one came for him.

He was in his 30s. Not exactly that odd for a coach in his 30s to not be a head coach. He was OC for a few years, did a great job as interim, and was then a hot commodity in his early 40s. Very normal career path and trajectory. The anti-Fulmer stance looks dumber the more you dig in.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

He was in his 30s. Not exactly that odd for a coach in his 30s to not be a head coach. He was OC for a few years, did a great job as interim, and was then a hot commodity in his early 40s. Very normal career path and trajectory. The anti-Fulmer stance looks dumber the more you dig in.

There's a ton of talk around here about how we wandered the wilderness for years before Heupel.

Who was the AD calling the shots in those years?

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Johnny drank when he got to UT. It wasn't new and like Bear, it wasn't unusual for the era.

Johnny's heart issues were being dealt with as well as possible for that era. Choosing Fulmer as an interim made sense.

I've said Fulmer ran with the job and did it well but where was the coaching search? Basically it was a back room decision from movers and shakers in the program.

Johnny didn't do well after coming back and a major bypass surgery was a huge deal then and he SHOULD have let Fulmer, who was having success, finish the season so he could recover.

Loyalty comes up a lot around here. We can disagree about whether UT was loyal to Johnny Majors and whether Phil Fulmer was loyal to Johnny Majors.

I'll not disagree about Fulmer's coaching but I'll say his negative effects on the program via how he took the coaching job and how he botched the AD job outweigh, for me, his positive effects on UT, even with the Natty.

Friend, you just acknowledged all the ways that Johnny Majors backstabbed himself (drinking, bad heart, inconsistent coaching), with your caveats coming down to, "it wasn't unusual for the time, and he was doing the best he could."

You didn't bring up a single data point describing how Fulmer supposedly backstabbed him, or hurt him in any way, other than coaching well and saying 'yes' when offered the head coaching position.

Everything in your response should lead a rational person to conclude it was not Phil's fault Johnny got canned. And yet you continue with the worn out "it's HOW he toook the coaching job." You offer zero new information. Nothing at all describing that "how."

So I'll ask you flat out: what specifically did you see Philip do in those three weeks between the South Carolina loss and the University announcing the coaching change, what specifically did Fulmer do in those few weeks that leads you to call him a backstabber? Beyond him saying, "yes, please," when offered the job. What else?

You got anything?


p.s. Not talking about Fulmer's AD stint, we all agree that wasn't good. But bringing it up is misdirection. It can't have anything to do with the "backstabber" accusation, came decades later. We're specifically talking about those three weeks when the University leadership was deciding to fire Johnny. Only then.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

Fulmer was a great coach

Great recruiter. Great OL coach too.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Great recruiter. Great OL coach too.

Great head coach, too.

Know how I know? National title and two sec crowns, plus a .745 win rate.

A head coach is what his teams accomplish on the field.

Only moderation or mitigation of that comes with the consequences of poor values. That wasn't a problem for Fulmer.

Go Vols!

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Friend, you just acknowledged all the ways that Johnny Majors backstabbed himself, with your caveats coming down to, "it wasn't unusual for the time, and he was doing the best he could."

You didn't bring up a single data point where Fulmer backstabbed him, other than saying 'yes' when offered the head coaching position.

Everything logical in your response should lead a rational person to conclude it was not Phil's fault Johnny got canned. And yet you continue with the worn out "it's HOW he toook the coaching job." You offer zero new information. Nothing at all describing that "how."

So I'll ask you flat out: what specifically did you see Philip do in those three weeks between the South Carolina loss and the University announcing the coaching change, what specifically did Fulmer do in those few weeks that leads you to call him a backstabber? Beyond him saying, "yes, please," when offered the job. What else?

You got anything?


p.s. Not talking about his Fulmer's AD stint, we all agree that wasn't good. Talking about those three weeks when the University leadership was deciding to fire Johnny.

I suppose you'll say it's only rumors that Dickey and Fulmer and other movers and shakers at UT never formulated a plan to push Johnny out.

Whatever happened led to Johnny Majors not coming back to Neyland for several years which hardly seems like a friendly transition for an alum and former coach of his stature.

Do I have the receipts? No one does and that's how these things went in those days. Shovel the dirt off of Phil Fulmer and onto Johnny Majors.

I'm aware Johnny was past his prime. I'm aware Johnny had faults and was ill. He deserves his share of the dirt.

Fulmer and Dickey weren't clean in the process either.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Fulmer and Dickey weren't clean in the process either.

If you're going to keep saying that, you really ought to be able to prove it. But you can't show a single fact supporting the claim. Can you?

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

If you're going to keep saying that, you really ought to be able to prove it. But you can't show a single fact supporting the claim. Can you?

You know damn well if that kind of proof existed we'd have a book about it and that whole fiasco and Fulmer having the receipts is likely what led to his being kept around as an incompetent AD for so long.

Fulmer and that crew of boosters had control and weren't about to give it up whether UT was successful or not.

 

[Power_Sweep_Vol]

If you're going to keep saying that, you really ought to be able to prove it. But you can't show a single fact supporting the claim. Can you?

He's right on this. Either you weren't around when this happened or you've forgotten, but there were a LOT of phone calls that went back and forth. Bill Johnson was the ringleader of the big boosters to move on from Johnny to Phil. They had the phone records that showed as much when it was reported at the time.

 

[Power_Sweep_Vol]

If you google "Bill Johnson" and Phillip Fulmer" a NYT/Athletic article pops up that mentions all the phone calls between the 2...I don't have a subscription.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

He's right on this. Either you weren't around when this happened or you've forgotten, but there were a LOT of phone calls that went back and forth. Bill Johnson was the ringleader of the big boosters to move on from Johnny to Phil. They had the phone records that showed as much when it was reported at the time.

What nefarious, exactly, do you think it proves that a key booster and the man they were considering for the head coaching job were talking frequently in the days before the University made the decision? Where's the smoking gun in that?

Don't you think Dan White and Josh Heupel talked on the phone a lot in the days prior to Josh being hired? Do you think that implies Josh backstabbed Pruitt?

I don't see any logic in this, either way.

Go Vols!

 

[Power_Sweep_Vol]

What nefarious, exactly, do you think it proves that a key booster and the man they were considering for the head coaching job were talking frequently in the days before the University made the decision? Where's the smoking gun in that?

Don't you think Dan White and Josh Heupel talked on the phone a lot in the days prior to Josh being hired? Do you think that implies Josh backstabbed Pruitt?

I don't see any logic in this, either way.

Go Vols!

I'm not big on the backstabbing angle...I don't think it's a big deal, but surely you understand the difference in boosters that call the shots talking to a member of the current staff surreptitiously vs a head coach for another team, right? Not remotely the same, and I am not on Team Backstab here.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I'm not big on the backstabbing angle...I don't think it's a big deal, but surely you understand the difference in boosters that call the shots talking to a member of the current staff surreptitiously vs a head coach for another team, right? Not remotely the same, and I am not on Team Backstab here.

Yeah, I don't know. I think any time a university is about to make a new hire of the magnitude of the head football coach, they're gonna do a LOT of fact-gathering (what folks erroneously tend to call 'due diligence' these days). That means a lot of talking to the guy(s) they're considering hiring. And some of that needs to be done face-to-face, but a lot can get done by phone.

I just don't see the "surreptitiously" in it that you seem to. What you're describing could be entirely above board. And Occam's Razor says it probably was.

Right?

 

[Power_Sweep_Vol]

Yeah, I don't know. I think any time a university is about to make a new hire of the magnitude of the head football coach, they're gonna do a LOT of fact-gathering (what folks erroneously tend to call 'due diligence' these days). That means a lot of talking to the guy(s) they're considering hiring. And some of that needs to be done face-to-face, but a lot can get done by phone.

I just don't see the "surreptitiously" in it that you seem to. What you're describing could be entirely above board. And Occam's Razor says it probably was.

Right?

Yeah, and now I feel like I'm defending Team Backstab but there was officially no search and it was a situation as I remember it where they were saying one thing publicly and doing other things behind the scenes. But I see your point.

 

[LegionnaireOfTheMiserable]

There's a ton of talk around here about how we wandered the wilderness for years before Heupel.

Who was the AD calling the shots in those years?

1. Being a bad AD doesn’t have any impact on Fulmer’s performance as a coach.

2. We were wandering the wilderness under multiple ADs before Fulmer ever got the job. When Fulmer left as AD, everything but football and women’s basketball were on a good track too.

You keep digging and keep looking more foolish.