Other countries to move to or hope to change the one we have?

#26
#26
Here are some stats from the WHO about the countries mentioned in this thread:

% of healthcare paid by Government:
45.8 United States
77.8 New Zealand
76.1 Costa Rica
68.6 Bhutan
67.2 Australia
83.1 Iceland
45.5 Argentina
64.4 Thailand

Government health care spending per capita
$3074 United States
$1884 New Zealand
$269 Costa Rica
$44 Bhutan
$2221 Australia
$4123 Iceland
$251 Argentina
$73 Thailand

Total Health Care spending per capita
$6714 United States
$2420 New Zealand
$353 Costa Rica
$65 Bhutan
$3316 Australia
$4962 Iceland
$551 Argentina
$113 Thailand

Infant mortality rate per 1000 births

7.0 United States
5.0 New Zealand
11.0 Costa Rica
63.0 Bhutan
5.0 Australia
2.0 Iceland
14.0 Argentina
7.0 Thailand

Life expectancy at birth
78 United States
80 New Zealand
78 Costa Rica
63 Bhutan
75 Australia
81 Iceland
75 Argentina
72 Thailand

Let the hammering begin....
 
#27
#27
infant mortality (particurally when arguing the difference between 5-7 rather than 7 and 14) and particular life expectancy have far more to do with diet and culture than they do with the healthcare provided. show me a stat that shows these countries say have a higher success rate with heart surgury or prostate cancer and i will gladly agree with you.
 
#28
#28
droski said:
infant mortality (particurally when arguing the difference between 5-7 rather than 7 and 14) and particular life expectancy have far more to do with diet and culture than they do with the healthcare provided. show me a stat that shows these countries say have a higher success rate with heart surgury or prostate cancer and i will gladly agree with you.
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Agree with me about what?

I did not express my opinion.

All I did was post the stats from the WHO about the countries that has been mentioned in this thread.
 
#30
#30
droski said:
why bother posting said statistics then? bored?
Click to expand...

Because it's fun to read knee-jerk opinions on the proper way to interpret said statistics. Afterall, we are the envy of healthcare effciency, anything that says otherwise is biased garbage.
 
#32
#32
Not bored.
I thought the stats were interesting. It's information concerning countries being mentioned in the thread.
 
#33
#33
droski said:
huge difference between healthcare efficiency and quality of healthcare. HUGE
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Depends on how you are defining quality and efficiency.

What is quality in the system...performance of goods and services...or...number of people covered/access/etc?

I'm not disagreeing with you. If I need heart surgery I wouldn't want to go to another country. Or at the very least, would want an American educated, board certified doctor doing it. I'm of the opinion that the more governemnt stays out of this the better, and things like medicare and medicaid only add to the problem that the free market could correct....but the issue still remains, while we undoubtedly have the best quality in the world, we could still very well be overpaying entirely too much for it.

Efficiency is a whole other animal. A cost-effectiveness curve would need to be put together, and it wouldn't be a true indicator of what type of care you would actually get.

I'm just saying, that statistics are what they are. It is true Australian government picks up 20% more of the tab and healthcare is roughly a third cheaper.
 
#34
#34
in reality we are subsidizing the rest of the world because our system actually pays for innovation or overpays (if you want to call it that). there are plenty of cutting edge technologies where we have far more systems in the US than the rest of the world combined. i very much doubt that without that demand that a lot of these technologies would exist.

but these statistics are making an entirely different argument. they are arguing that the quality is better overseas which is ridiculous. i don't deny it's cheaper, but i'm not sure i want to live in a world where the US starts innovating at a euro level.
 
#35
#35
droski said:
in reality we are subsidizing the rest of the world because our system actually pays for innovation or overpays (if you want to call it that). there are plenty of cutting edge technologies where we have far more systems in the US than the rest of the world combined. i very much doubt that without that demand that a lot of these technologies would exist.

but these statistics are making an entirely different argument. they are arguing that the quality is better overseas which is ridiculous. i don't deny it's cheaper, but i'm not sure i want to live in a world where the US starts innovating at a euro level.
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No they aren't, at least not the way I see it. I see them arguing that overseas systems are more effecient. Obviously if the stats were weighted with some quality metric the story would be different.

Your point about subsidizing the rest of the world has merit and why the stats don't tell the whole story. However, on a per country basis as these stats are ordered, we are not getting the most bang for our buck.
 
#36
#36
Vols378 said:
Here are some stats from the WHO about the countries mentioned in this thread:

% of healthcare paid by Government:
45.8 United States
77.8 New Zealand
76.1 Costa Rica
68.6 Bhutan
67.2 Australia
83.1 Iceland
45.5 Argentina
64.4 Thailand

Government health care spending per capita
$3074 United States
$1884 New Zealand
$269 Costa Rica
$44 Bhutan
$2221 Australia
$4123 Iceland
$251 Argentina
$73 Thailand

Total Health Care spending per capita
$6714 United States
$2420 New Zealand
$353 Costa Rica
$65 Bhutan
$3316 Australia
$4962 Iceland
$551 Argentina
$113 Thailand

Infant mortality rate per 1000 births

7.0 United States
5.0 New Zealand
11.0 Costa Rica
63.0 Bhutan
5.0 Australia
2.0 Iceland
14.0 Argentina
7.0 Thailand

Life expectancy at birth
78 United States
80 New Zealand
78 Costa Rica
63 Bhutan
75 Australia
81 Iceland
75 Argentina
72 Thailand

Let the hammering begin....
Click to expand...


Life expectancy stat is one of the most overhyped useless stats around. As if the goal of life should be to eek out every last frigging day you can get with no concern for quality or enjoyment of the actual life.
 
#37
#37
Funny, But that is exactly the goal for the vast majority of not only our health system and most patients.

While we do have the best medical technology and the most highly trained doctors, our outcomes on the whole are simply not as good as most other industrialized countries. Most of that is due to the unavailability of quality care for our less fortunate. In other words, you get the best health care money can buy, if you can afford it!

Which brings me to the fact that this reform effort is built to try and fix those things, WORKING THROUGH THE PRIVATE INSURORS, health care providers etc. I know this gets some folks uptight, but in ten years will wonder why we let this wait so long.
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#38
#38
dave956 said:
Funny, But that is exactly the goal for the vast majority of not only our health system and most patients.

While we do have the best medical technology and the most highly trained doctors, our outcomes on the whole are simply not as good as most other industrialized countries. Most of that is due to the unavailability of quality care for our less fortunate. In other words, you get the best health care money can buy, if you can afford it!

Which brings me to the fact that this reform effort is built to try and fix those things, WORKING THROUGH THE PRIVATE INSURORS, health care providers etc. I know this gets some folks uptight, but in ten years will wonder why we let this wait so long.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

For the sake of the country, and its future I hope you are right.

But I have a hard time believing you will be.
 
#39
#39
dave956 said:
Funny, But that is exactly the goal for the vast majority of not only our health system and most patients.

While we do have the best medical technology and the most highly trained doctors, our outcomes on the whole are simply not as good as most other industrialized countries. Most of that is due to the unavailability of quality care for our less fortunate. In other words, you get the best health care money can buy, if you can afford it!

Which brings me to the fact that this reform effort is built to try and fix those things, WORKING THROUGH THE PRIVATE INSURORS, health care providers etc. I know this gets some folks uptight, but in ten years will wonder why we let this wait so long.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

Great goal. Live until every piece of machinery and drug has gotten every last breath your body and science can squeeze out of you. I consider it rather ridiculous. But yea, looking at the average person in the mall you are sooooo correct. I can really tell that is their goal.

As for comparing to other countries, so not worth it. Again, we live via fast food, 50+ hour work weeks and keeping up with the Joneses. We are not other cultures.
 
#40
#40
allvol123 said:
Life expectancy stat is one of the most overhyped useless stats around. As if the goal of life should be to eek out every last frigging day you can get with no concern for quality or enjoyment of the actual life.
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Agreed. By itself, it is not even remotely relevant to judging quality of care because it is affected by murders, other non-health related deaths, obesity, smoking, etc. Here is a good article that attempts to correct for some of these problems. CARPE DIEM: Beyond Those Health Care Numbers: US Looks Good
 
#42
#42
Never ever ever going to happen. Wish it would. The Marines just need a excuse...[/QUOTE]

So they Marines would fire on the American people for trying to escape this communist govt? I doubt it.
 
#43
#43
Vols378 said:
Not bored.
I thought the stats were interesting. It's information concerning countries being mentioned in the thread.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, some good stuff although I'm not sure all those stats are really right. I trust the UN World Health Orgianisation about as much as a copperhead in my sleeping bag. Their IPCC enviro drive has proven to be about as unreliable as it gets. Iran and some other hellhole are about to be elected to the UN human rights councel. The whole organization is completely corupt.

And too the point has been made that part of the high cost here in America is because we do most of the research and development that makes things better the world over.

I can't speak for Rasputin but I don't think he is considering expatriotism on the basis of health care but on the overall direction America seems to be headed.

I think to a lot of people it boils down to individual freedom or the lack thereof.

Do we want to try to maintain our hard won and defended freedoms or live in an all powerful nanny state and ultimately to submit national sovereinty to the United Nations????? :)

volfanjustin said:
Never ever ever going to happen. Wish it would. The Marines just need a excuse...
Click to expand...

So they Marines would fire on the American people for trying to escape this communist govt? I doubt it.[/QUOTE]

Not too sure he is really a Marine but if he is then he's either unseasoned or has been in battle and is sick of war, which is very understandable.

Historical precedent.
 
#45
#45
so in your real world there are all these people dying prematurely in the US because they can't get medical coverage? so many people that countries where the plague still exists have higher life expectancies? surely you must know dozens of said people personally right? since it's a supposed 10% of the population?
 
#46
#46
volfanjustin said:
Never ever ever going to happen. Wish it would. The Marines just need a excuse...
Click to expand...

So they Marines would fire on the American people for trying to escape this communist govt? I doubt it.[/QUOTE]

YOu really need to read and research a number of things so you don't look so foolish when you post. Calling our government something akin to communism is about as ignorant as anyone can be. You do know the threats to free speech in this country have almost always invariably come from the right. Do some research young man and then get back to us
 
#48
#48
truefan said:
So they Marines would fire on the American people for trying to escape this communist govt? I doubt it.
Click to expand...

YOu really need to read and research a number of things so you don't look so foolish when you post. Calling our government something akin to communism is about as ignorant as anyone can be. You do know the threats to free speech in this country have almost always invariably come from the right. Do some research young man and then get back to us[/QUOTE]

Bullshiz. The government now controls the largest American auto company and has ceded control essentially to union goons. Our idiotic sec treasury is using rescue money, essentially mandated by the fed, as excuse for dictating bank officer pay.

Hate speech bullcrap is absolutely leftist. Removal of all things Christian from public view is hardcore lefty. GTFO with your misinformation.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#49
#49
BigPapaVol said:
Tell me about some specifics.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Specificity of what? An example of the less fortunate not getting adequate care?

Man contracts cancer. Doesn't have health insurance. Cannot afford sugery that might save his life. Hospital requires down payment before they can perform the surgery. Man couldn't afford down payment so surgery was never scheduled. Man died yesterday. Very few knew of his situation because said man was extremely proud. One of the nicer and classier gentleman I have ever known. Going to his visitation tomorrow afternoon.
 
#50
#50
Almighty administrator, what do you do with the majority of people who are going to spunge off the gov't?
 
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