Palestinians celebrate death of children.

#27
#27
The Palestinians have been used for decades by surrounding countries in the area, they care little for them as a people but value them highly as a tool against Israel. They are pawns for Israel's neighbors
 
#28
#28
KB5252 said:
The Palestinians have been used for decades by surrounding countries in the area, they care little for them as a people but value them highly as a tool against Israel. They are pawns for Israel's neighbors
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you're exactly right, their 'arab brothers' would not give them any land of their own, but used them to garner hate from the world.

it simple amazes my that a country as small as Israel can be the source of so much hate worldwide. there's no explanation other than what the Bible states about Israel and her enemies.
 
#29
#29
sjt18 said:
Yeah.... there's a real parallel between the pervasiveness of Westboro's stupidity in America and hatred of Jews among the Arabs/Muslims in Gaza.:rolleyes: For all their abject ignorance, I am not aware of Westboro being part of terrorist activities, are you?

Good grief.
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You clearly missed the point, but hey, as if you can ever be incorrect.
 
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#30
#30
sjt18 said:
Yeah... that pesky 1st Amendment.

No. One could NOT call their "hate speech" terrorism. But lets play along with your line of reasoning a minute. If it is then certainly the Feds should be all over the Wisconsin union protesters. Their speech has come in much greater volume and with just as much hate as Westboro... and they've even made direct threats of violence. I guess Obama's pastor was also a terrorist... his speech was certainly hateful. The list goes on and on for both sides once you start down the "hate speech" = oppression/violence line of reasoning.
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Now you're comparing the fanatical words of one, sniveling reverend to an entire group of people who travel the country, show up to funerals of particularly devastated families, and harass them DAILY. I don't really care if their asses are covered by the 1st Amendment, they're still terrorizing innocent people.

It's silly to not consider them terrorists. Explosions and mass murder aren't the only categories of terrorism. It's asinine to think otherwise.
 
#31
#31
sjt18 said:
No. It isn't very grey at all.

Israel's enemies deny the country's right to exist. If you agree with that premise then attacks on Israel are justified.

Israel is an advanced democratic country that shows every indication of being willing to coexist with their Arab neighbors. If you agree with that premise then the attacks are wholly unjust and Israel's response to them is VERY reserved.

Think about it. Israel gave up land to the Palestinians in exchange for peace just a few years ago. They continue to suffer attacks but have not seized the territory back.

IMO, Israel is in the right and the Arabs are in the wrong. Israel is defending itself while the Arabs are the aggressors.
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Oh, it's grey no matter how bad you don't want it to be for cultural reasons. Israel just popped into existence by Western powers in a land already arbitrarily cut up by Britain decades before. You say most Palestinians came from Jordan, but that's literally propaganda. Most Israelites came from Europe in the last 60 years. The Palestinians were in Palestine, clashing with the Ottoman Turks prior to WWI, rioting over getting screwed by the British right after the first world war, and then cleared and pushed back by the Zionist movement.

Palestinians are human beings and as much entitled to live there as people transplanted there out of Europe's unreconcilable racism and religious fetishes.

I'm not ignoring the war-like nature of their neighbors, but I'm not pretending like Israel is just this innocent tiny nation who is being picked on either. They were placed there by a far-away foreign power in the middle of a highly sensitive holy area. As far as "right to exist," I'm for them continuing on now but if it were 1948, I would say that the UN nor anyone else had the right to just up and create a nation and move the citizens in like that.
 
#32
#32
DinkinFlicka said:
You clearly missed the point, but hey, as if you can ever be incorrect.
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Your point was that just as Westboro isn't representative of Baptists, these people aren't representative, right?

If that is your point then it is incorrect for two reasons. One, Westboro nor their close associates are killing the people whose deaths they celebrate. As sick as they are for doing it... it does not compare to the sickness of causing it then celebrating. Two, the Palestinians celebrating the deaths of these children are much more representative of their people.

Here's a poll on a similar incident 3 years ago: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/w...l=1&adxnnlx=1300204814-201dQq951bfyAOBy54i5CA

Everyone I know... and I kind of run more conservative circles than you... condemns Westboro without prompting. I am not even sure that anyone has thought polling their support was worth the money.
 
#33
#33
sjt18 said:
Your point was that just as Westboro isn't representative of Baptists, these people aren't representative, right?

If that is your point then it is incorrect for two reasons. One, Westboro nor their close associates are killing the people whose deaths they celebrate. As sick as they are for doing it... it does not compare to the sickness of causing it then celebrating. Two, the Palestinians celebrating the deaths of these children are much more representative of their people.

Here's a poll on a similar incident 3 years ago: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/w...l=1&adxnnlx=1300204814-201dQq951bfyAOBy54i5CA

Everyone I know... and I kind of run more conservative circles than you... condemns Westboro without prompting. I am not even sure that anyone has thought polling their support was worth the money.
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His explanation for the shift, one widely reflected in the Palestinian media, is that recent actions by Israel, especially attacks on Gaza that killed nearly 130 people, an undercover operation in Bethlehem that killed four militants and the announced expansion of several West Bank settlements, have led to despair and rage among average Palestinians who thirst for revenge.
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From your article. Why do you think Palestinians are fundamentally evil? That is what you are basically implying here.
 
#34
#34
IPorange said:
Oh, it's grey no matter how bad you don't want it to be for cultural reasons. Israel just popped into existence by Western powers in a land already arbitrarily cut up by Britain decades before. You say most Palestinians came from Jordan, but that's literally propaganda. Most Israelites came from Europe in the last 60 years. The Palestinians were in Palestine, clashing with the Ottoman Turks prior to WWI, rioting over getting screwed by the British right after the first world war, and then cleared and pushed back by the Zionist movement.
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Nothing in this diatribe actually contradicts what I said except the denial that many/most Palestinians migrated from east of the Jordan River.

It is not grey. Israel either has a right to exist on that postage stamp surrounded by millions of square miles of land inhabited by Arabs and associated Muslim ethnic groups or they don't.

I am not disputing your right to say they do not have that right... but the issue isn't "grey". It is pretty cut and dried. Israel cannot simultaneously exist and not exist.

Palestinians are human beings and as much entitled to live there as people transplanted there out of Europe's unreconcilable racism and religious fetishes.
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Again, if they would stop fighting there would be peace. Israels has very recently conceded land for peace.... and been rewarded with more unprovoked attacks.

I'm not ignoring the war-like nature of their neighbors, but I'm not pretending like Israel is just this innocent tiny nation who is being picked on either. They were placed there by a far-away foreign power in the middle of a highly sensitive holy area. As far as "right to exist," I'm for them continuing on now but if it were 1948, I would say that the UN nor anyone else had the right to just up and create a nation and move the citizens in like that.
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Rightly or wrongly the colonial powers did that in more places than just Israel. They arbitrarily divided and cobbled together countries all over the world. For that matter, Clinton did a version of it in southeast Europe.

But then what you get into is each groups' historic claims. That goes all the way back to Abraham who both groups claim as their patriarch. Both groups claim his inheritance which includes all of Palestine and parts of Jordan, Lebanon, SA, Egypt, and even Iraq. You cannot avoid these religious and historic implications but if you don't ignore them... both sides will demand that you take sides.

It isn't easy... but it isn't grey. For wholly non-religious reasons, I find Israel's claim of a land parcel smaller than New Jersey compared to the expanses of Arab territory to be reasonable.
 
#35
#35
IPorange said:
From your article. Why do you think Palestinians are fundamentally evil? That is what you are basically implying here.
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I think it is fundamentally evil to celebrate the deaths of anyone... even your enemies... but especially civilians.

I believe in repentance and forgiveness. When they are willing to repent and desire peace over violence, I will support them and "celebrate" them.

Are they "fundamentally evil"? I don't know. They will tell that tale by how they move forward.

Question though: from your philosophical perspective, what is "fundamental evil"? Should survival of the fittest not apply here? If not, why?
 
#36
#36
sjt18 said:
I think it is fundamentally evil to celebrate the deaths of anyone... even your enemies... but especially civilians.

I believe in repentance and forgiveness. When they are willing to repent and desire peace over violence, I will support them and "celebrate" them.

Are they "fundamentally evil"? I don't know. They will tell that tale by how they move forward.

Question though: from your philosophical perspective, what is "fundamental evil"? Should survival of the fittest not apply here? If not, why?
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You're painting an entire ethnicity as one. It's not accurate and it's not fair. Not every Palestinian celebrated the death of those kids. Not even half of them. Meanwhile, you're burying your head in the sand about the civilian casualties due to Israeli actions, or the repeated violations of agreements by Israel in regards to settlement.

I don't believe in fundamental evil.
 
#37
#37
ter·ror·ism   
[ter-uh-riz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
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Please try to tell me that saying someone is going to hell because they're gay is not terrorism. Terrorism is not strictly physically violent in nature.
 
#38
#38
VOLatile said:
Please try to tell me that saying someone is going to hell because they're gay is not terrorism. Terrorism is not strictly physically violent in nature.
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but if you don't believe in hell is it truly a threat?
 
#40
#40
sjt18 said:
Your point was that just as Westboro isn't representative of Baptists, these people aren't representative, right?

If that is your point then it is incorrect for two reasons. One, Westboro nor their close associates are killing the people whose deaths they celebrate. As sick as they are for doing it... it does not compare to the sickness of causing it then celebrating. Two, the Palestinians celebrating the deaths of these children are much more representative of their people.
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One, the two situations we're discussing do not have to perfectly emulate one another in order to draw a logical comparison between them.

Two, you can't take that poll seriously. Imagine, your house is hit by a rocket. You and your family are destitute. Are you really going to take the time to answer a Shikaki poll? I've never been one to trust poll results, but this one should be iffy for just about anyone.


sjt18 said:
Everyone I know... and I kind of run more conservative circles than you...
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How do you figure that, exactly? Our crowds may not be too different. You have absolutely no way of knowing that. Anyway...


sjt18 said:
condemns Westboro without prompting. I am not even sure that anyone has thought polling their support was worth the money.
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That goes without saying, but it's also irrelevant. You're pretty much saying Palestinians are fundamentally evil simply because you see chaos in a chaotic land. Again, we rarely see the folks who are really hurting from this... only those starting the fire and fanning the flame.
 
#41
#41
VOLatile said:
No. There are many terrorists that are no threat to me, but it doesn't stop them from getting labeled terrorist.
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actually it seems like you just want to dump all religions into the terrorist bin. Which one doesn't say you'll be punished for doing something?
 
#44
#44
utvolpj said:
actually it seems like you just want to dump all religions into the terrorist bin. Which one doesn't say you'll be punished for doing something?
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I take from what he is saying that he is rejecting the "terrorist bin" outright, not placing things into it.
 
#48
#48
utvolpj said:
maybe I read this wrong? It's possible
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Yeah. My explanation was confusing, IP got it right. Not all religious people are terrorists. Some let others live the way they want to live, and that's fine by me. It's simple, if you go around telling people they're going to hell then you're instilling a basic fear in them. That's on the level with terrorism, imo.

Sorry if I'm being confusing again, I have a knack for it.
 
#49
#49
VOLatile said:
It's simple, if you go around telling people they're going to hell then you're instilling a basic fear in them. That's on the level with terrorism, imo.
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but don't they all do this? I realize WBC is probably more vocal but I thought it was a basic part of religion
 
#50
#50
utvolpj said:
but don't they all do this? I realize WBC is probably more vocal but I thought it was a basic part of religion
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While they may think it, the majority of them are not vocal about it. Especially not straight to the face of, for instance, a homosexual. If the WBC kept to their church, then they wouldn't be terrorists.
 
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