Partial building collapse in Miami Beach

#27
#27
Wireless1 said:
Odd the way it went down, from the center of the original section the the right section was from the bottom up after the first section was down. Will be interesting what new codes come out as a result. I thought by 1980 Hurricane proofing was already in place so that loss of part didn't have catastrophic results for the rest.
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The building codes really changed after Hurricane Andrew in 1992. They were updated again in 2002 I think. If you buy an older house in Florida, there is a repair threshold that kicks in and once it does, you have to bring it fully up to the modern building code standards.
 
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#28
#28
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This is the building from above, I also don't know why they're calling it a partial collapse. It looks to me like the majority of the building collapsed.
 
#30
#30
sona said:
So the building was undergoing a 40 year engineering recertification when this happened. Cracks were found (apparently minor and already repaired) while a new massive building was going up beside it. Some people thinking that maybe the construction of the new building destabilized this one.
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I saw a comment on Reddit where a supposed construction worker on the new building said there had previously been complaints or even lawsuit related to vibrations from the construction causing cracking in the neighboring pool and parking garage. It seems like that would have a paper trail easy enough for a journalist or internet sleuth to track down already so tifwiw. But it’s not all that crazy. We do vibration monitoring on some big construction projects.

Or, probably, a sinkhole, or otherwise undermined foundation. Maybe just from subsidence/differential settlement. I also read the building had been sinking since at least the 90s. I’m curious what their local geology is but currently too lazy to find out.

Edit: It is mapped as limestone. I couldn’t find any logs. It’s probably some marshy beach deposit crud and fill over limestone bedrock. Maybe some of the piles didn’t go deep enough, maybe sinkholes around piles, maybe there’s corrosion from the seawater.

In any case it doesn’t sound like terrorism, since there were reports of the building making awful creaking noises leading up to the failure. I guess disasters like this are usually a combination of several failures. Just terrifying
 
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#33
#33
BartW said:
I saw a comment on Reddit where a supposed construction worker on the new building said there had previously been complaints or even lawsuit related to vibrations from the construction causing cracking in the neighboring pool and parking garage. It seems like that would have a paper trail easy enough for a journalist or internet sleuth to track down already so tifwiw. But it’s not all that crazy. We do vibration monitoring on some big construction projects.

Or, probably, a sinkhole, or otherwise undermined foundation. Maybe just from subsidence/differential settlement. I also read the building had been sinking since at least the 90s. I’m curious what their local geology is but currently too lazy to find out.

Edit: It is mapped as limestone. I couldn’t find any logs. It’s probably some marshy beach deposit crud and fill over limestone bedrock. Maybe some of the piles didn’t go deep enough, maybe sinkholes around piles, maybe there’s corrosion from the seawater.

In any case it doesn’t sound like terrorism, since there were reports of the building making awful creaking noises leading up to the failure. I guess disasters like this are usually a combination of several failures. Just terrifying
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I wonder if they drained the nearby site? Change in the hydrological pressure has been known to cause issues. I remember London running into it.

If they had cracks before, the vibrations and even slight changes in soil conditions can spell ruin for a building real fast.

I am thinking that recertification process gets bumped up to 30 year max or so.

At some point you have to do significant repair work or pretty much anything will fall down.
 
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#35
#35
LouderVol said:
I wonder if they drained the nearby site? Change in the hydrological pressure has been known to cause issues. I remember London running into it.

If they had cracks before, the vibrations and even slight changes in soil conditions can spell ruin for a building real fast.

I am thinking that recertification process gets bumped up to 30 year max or so.

At some point you have to do significant repair work or pretty much anything will fall down.
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Except towers in Pizza





(Yes, I know they did some stabilization work on it several years back. When I saw it in person a few years ago I couldn’t believe that it hadn’t already fallen)
 
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#36
#36
'Obviously something very unusual happened here': Marco Rubio says he 'understands' why residents in twin building of collapsed Miami condo would be 'concerned' - as mayor REFUSES to Force Evacuation

Marco Rubio said Sunday he 'understands' why residents in the twin building of a collapsed Miami condo would be 'concerned', saying: 'Obviously something very unusual happened here'.

The Republican senator spoke as residents in the block were offered the chance to evacuate, with the local mayor saying he 'did not want to make it mandatory' but 'would not want to take the chance' himself.

Champlain Towers South in Surfside, near Miami Beach, collapsed on Thursday, and of today nine people have been confirmed dead and a further 150 people are still unaccounted for.

Asked about the block's twin building, Champlain Towers East - which has the same design and was built by the same architect - Rubio told Face The Nation: 'I do know and understand why people living in the area, specifically the building north of it, basically a twin, would be concerned.

'I know that if they would like to relocate FEMA will now help them with those arrangements... I have little doubt that we will know why this happen and be able to make changes to building codes if necessary to make sure it never happens again.'

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Marco Rubio speaks after Miami condo collapse tragedy | Daily Mail Online
 
#38
#38
Franklin Pierce said:
'Obviously something very unusual happened here': Marco Rubio says he 'understands' why residents in twin building of collapsed Miami condo would be 'concerned' - as mayor REFUSES to Force Evacuation

Marco Rubio said Sunday he 'understands' why residents in the twin building of a collapsed Miami condo would be 'concerned', saying: 'Obviously something very unusual happened here'.

The Republican senator spoke as residents in the block were offered the chance to evacuate, with the local mayor saying he 'did not want to make it mandatory' but 'would not want to take the chance' himself.

Champlain Towers South in Surfside, near Miami Beach, collapsed on Thursday, and of today nine people have been confirmed dead and a further 150 people are still unaccounted for.

Asked about the block's twin building, Champlain Towers East - which has the same design and was built by the same architect - Rubio told Face The Nation: 'I do know and understand why people living in the area, specifically the building north of it, basically a twin, would be concerned.

'I know that if they would like to relocate FEMA will now help them with those arrangements... I have little doubt that we will know why this happen and be able to make changes to building codes if necessary to make sure it never happens again.'

44743115-9730765-image-a-108_1624822897372.jpg


44743647-9730765-image-a-105_1624822770194.jpg


Marco Rubio speaks after Miami condo collapse tragedy | Daily Mail Online
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I read that whole article thinking they were discussing the 1/2 that didn’t collapse.
 
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#39
#39
This statement from a former maintenance manager (1995 to 2000) is likely why the building dropped.

“Any time that we had high tides away from the ordinary, any King Tide or anything like that, we would have a lot of saltwater come in through the bottom of the of the foundation,” he claimed, adding they had to use two large pumps to try and remove the rising water. “But it was so much water, all the time, that the pumps never could keep up with it.”

“The water would just basically sit there and then it would just seep downward,” Espinosa said. “It would just go away after a while. And I would think, where does that water go? Because it had to go in through somewhere. I’m talking about a foot, sometimes two feet of water in the bottom of the parking lot, the whole parking lot.”
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Source - Condo Collapse: Former Maintenance Manager William Espinosa Was Concerned About Saltwater Intrusion
 
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#43
#43
Wireless1 said:
Odd the way it went down, from the center of the original section the the right section was from the bottom up after the first section was down. Will be interesting what new codes come out as a result. I thought by 1980 Hurricane proofing was already in place so that loss of part didn't have catastrophic results for the rest.
Click to expand...
Still waiting on building code updates from WTC building 7, which they say fell due a fire. A skyscraper has never collapsed from a fire. Building 7 had help, IMO. Check out AE911truth.org
 
#45
#45
YankeeVol said:
LOL. How many skyscrapers were doused in jet fuel during testing?
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Building 7 wasn't hit by a plane. The twin towers were. Check out the website man it's pretty interesting.... saw a presentation on it at an engineering conference earlier this month in Gulf Shores. Dude from California was presenting on it. Convinced a room full of about 60 engineers that it's impossible for the building to have fallen the way they say it fell.

Edit: Also... there are reports still available online of building 7 falling before building 7 went down. You can see building 7 behind the reporter as she's reporting that it collapsed. Owner of the building says after everyone was evacuated they decided to "pull it". A demo term. Counter argument is that they rigged it to collapse after the plane attacks because it was doomed to fall from the fires so a controlled collapse was safer... problem is it takes weeks to rig a building to implode and no building has ever fallen from an office fire. Analysis attempting to show it fell from a fire had to assume internal temps were over 1200 degrees F. They also had to assume the steel beams weren't bolted together. Alto had to assume the beam seats were smaller than they actually were. Also had to "cut" the beams in their model to get them to buckle... It's all very, very suspicious. This isn't a conspiracy. It's a review of what actually happened.
 
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#47
#47
I know there are multiple people on this site who either own condos at the beach or plan to own one.

I know this has personally freaked me out a little.
 
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#48
#48
LouderVol said:
I wonder if they drained the nearby site? Change in the hydrological pressure has been known to cause issues. I remember London running into it.

If they had cracks before, the vibrations and even slight changes in soil conditions can spell ruin for a building real fast.

I am thinking that recertification process gets bumped up to 30 year max or so.

At some point you have to do significant repair work or pretty much anything will fall down.
Click to expand...
Looking at google earth, you can see that there was a relatively deep excavation next door. Considering the water table is probably near the surface, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was dewatering involved. I have no experience in karst, but dewatering limestone sites seems… scary.

There’s not much useful soil information through FL gis apps. I’ve read generally the area is about 20 feet of crummy deposits over limestone bedrock, but also that the bedrock may be shallower along the east side of Miami beach. I’ve also heard it reported in media, but could not verify, that they don’t even require geotechnical reports there (and the mayor is now pushing for that). That’s shocking, if true (and I have my doubts). How can you design deep foundations and/or shoring without a geotechnical engineering report? If the soils are easy I get it, but Miami beach is a beach… and limestone is scary…

Looking through the building plans, it appears they used pressure injected footings, aka franki piles. But if I’m interpreting correctly, they were only designed to go 4 feet deep (or embedded 4 feet)? And only some are reinforced. Maybe they’re already in bedrock at the bottom of basement excavation, but that still seems like an inadequate design for a mid-rise. I doubt the limestone is that competent at that depth. I read that concrete piles (though perhaps a different type) are typically embedded about 20 feet there. So that could be the cause of the settlement and/or could make it more susceptible to problems related to nearby construction vibrations and dewatering.

CHAMPLAIN TOWERS PUBLIC RECORDS & MEDIA INFORMATION

Of course, like I said, I have no experience and minimal knowledge of the area, and have never worked with franki piles, so it’s entirely likely I’m wrong about everything! I work in geotech but am more geologist than engineer. So maybe I'm biased in suspecting a soil problem. Maybe it was just absolute sh!t concrete work and waterproofing, lack of proper maintainence, etc. I'm just guessing.
 
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#49
#49
BartW said:
Looking at google earth, you can see that there was a relatively deep excavation next door. Considering the water table is probably near the surface, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was dewatering involved. I have no experience in karst, but dewatering limestone sites seems… scary.

There’s not much useful soil information through FL gis apps. I’ve read generally the area is about 20 feet of crummy deposits over limestone bedrock, but also that the bedrock may be shallower along the east side of Miami beach. I’ve also heard it reported in media, but could not verify, that they don’t even require geotechnical reports there (and the mayor is now pushing for that). That’s shocking, if true (and I have my doubts). How can you design deep foundations and/or shoring without a geotechnical engineering report? If the soils are easy I get it, but Miami beach is a beach… and limestone is scary…

Looking through the building plans, it appears they used pressure injected footings, aka franki piles. But if I’m interpreting correctly, they were only designed to go 4 feet deep (or embedded 4 feet)? And only some are reinforced. Maybe they’re already in bedrock at the bottom of basement excavation, but that still seems like an inadequate design for a mid-rise. I doubt the limestone is that competent at that depth. I read that concrete piles (though perhaps a different type) are typically embedded about 20 feet there. So that could be the cause of the settlement and/or could make it more susceptible to problems related to nearby construction vibrations and dewatering.

CHAMPLAIN TOWERS PUBLIC RECORDS & MEDIA INFORMATION

Of course, like I said, I have no experience and minimal knowledge of the area, and have never worked with franki piles, so it’s entirely likely I’m wrong about everything! I work in geotech but am more geologist than engineer. So maybe I'm biased in suspecting a soil problem. Maybe it was just absolute sh!t concrete work and waterproofing, lack of proper maintainence, etc. I'm just guessing.
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If the maintenance guys story checks out, and there are only 4 feet of piles, whatever type, you are going to see the effects pretty fast imo. I was thinking sink hole at first, but in this case just a little bit of wash and you have issues.

Like you I dont have any experience with this system. Here in Georgia everything is typically friction piles.
 
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