Pass defense. Talent, coaching or both?

#77
#77
The secondary is not overall good . The larger problem is tge pass rush . An ideal pass rush should arrive in 2.5 seconds. Anything more than that opens up the route tree and makes it impossible for the best secondary to cover. When we rush 4 , our pass rush is beyond 5 seconds and sometimes way beyond that. We rely on blitzes. You live and die by the blitz. It exposes the under and edges...which we get burned often there. Add two high quality pass rushers and the secondary won't be the problem that it is . The best defensive stock we have seen in years is on the way . The resolution starts in the trenches
 
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#78
#78
Pass defense from a team perspective starts with the rush and how you can affect the quarterback. If you can get there with 4, you can play with twin safeties. If you have man coverage corners, that will allow you to send pressure. The talent level will determine the type of defense the coach can play.
 
#80
#80
majic73 said:
The secondary is not overall good . The larger problem is tge pass rush . An ideal pass rush should arrive in 2.5 seconds. Anything more than that opens up the route tree and makes it impossible for the best secondary to cover. When we rush 4 , our pass rush is beyond 5 seconds and sometimes way beyond that. We rely on blitzes. You live and die by the blitz. It exposes the under and edges...which we get burned often there. Add two high quality pass rushers and the secondary won't be the problem that it is . The best defensive stock we have seen in years is on the way . The resolution starts in the trenches
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So fire Garner?
 
#81
#81
lexkyvol said:
LBs and DL coaches are good IMO! everything else that has to do with defense FIRE right after vandy game. give others a chance to audition during bowl or hire others

with this situation it cant be any worse
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Heard the same thing about our HC situation with Butch...... was as informed then as now.
 
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#82
#82
Allvols1996 said:
I spent some time looking through our roster and the current players who are available in our secondary. The problems in this group are obvious to anyone watching. The Vols rank 130 out of 131 teams in pass defense, giving up 303 yards passing per game.

The big question is to what degree does UT’s secondary problem fall on the coaches versus the players? It’s hard to know for sure, but looking through the recruiting profiles of those who signed out of high school, as well as the transfers, they should be getting better performance than the stats portray.

Another question is why other players aren’t seeing the field. Andre Turrentine seemed like a name that was sure to see action. He played a bit early in the year, but has seen little more than sparse mop up duty since. Dee Williams has shown his worth as a shifty and sure-handed punt returner, immediately elevating that position. At CB it’s been a completely different story. Williams has been virtually non existent even in mop up duty.

The bottom line is while there is no clear superstar at DB, the roster has a number of highly recruited and ranked players, that with proper development, should provide decent play in the secondary. Still, this unit performs poorly in all areas, from coverage to tackling.

There is no question the staff needs to upgrade the talent, but what we are seeing goes far beyond skill. These players are poorly coached and lost in this defensive system.

Recruiting rankings are never a guarantee, but teams can typically count on a fair percentage of players living up to their star ranking. With proper coaching and development you’ll have the occasional player who exceeds their ranking, and UT has certainly had its share of those over the years. With this roster, you’d have to believe that there are 6-8 players who were complete busts and somehow, magically, all ended up on the same roster. I’m not buying it.

In the final evaluation, Heupel’s offense doesn’t need a top 20 defense to succeed. I don’t think anyone expected that from this staff by year two. Unfortunately, things appear to be heading in the wrong direction on that side of the ball, and UT will be lucky to finish in the top 100 in total defense.

I’d say a defense anywhere in the top 60 would provide enough support to keep the Vols consistently ahead of the sticks against 90% of the league. With the resources at UT that is an easily obtainable goal.

Just a few seasons ago we believed that averaging 35 points per game was out of reach. With an innovative system and quality development, the Vols shattered that ceiling becoming the most potent offense in the nation. It seems unreasonable that the offensive roster could have so many players exceed their ceiling while the defense has had so few.

Conclusion: There are enough pieces in the secondary to perform better than what the stats reveal. Heupel needs to make staff changes on the defensive side of the ball, and find a coach that can better evaluate talent, develop the roster, and teach the game.[/QUOT
Talent issue..our back end could play at Ohio State and TCU....but....this is big boy ball here....@exposed all season
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#83
#83
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#84
#84
I'll say this: I'm a Lions fan. Through the first 7 games of the season they were 1-6. Defense--especially the secondary--was BRUTAL. Last in the league through the first 7 games.

Lions fired DBs coach Aubrey Pleasant. Some initially thought he was a "sacrificial lamb" situation at first. But over the last 5 games the Lions are 4-1 and the secondary is ranking in the top 10 in the league (I don't know the exact numbers).

The point is: whether he was actually a problem, or his firing lit a fire with the players, they definitely turned it around. I think it was probably a combination of the two.

Now with the Vols, the talent is there--it just has to be properly developed and tapped into. A coaching staff shouldn't need all 4 and 5* talent in order to succeed. Great coaches can turn 3* in 4 or 5* and maximize the talent of 4 and 5*.
 
#85
#85
I can't speak to the coaching ability but I can see that the DB's were too slow and inexperienced to play man to man coverage. The zone they use was torched. I think they had a defensive strategy to stop the run at all costs which put more pressure on the secondary as well. They did stop the run.
 
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#86
#86
FollowTheLeader said:
The football stats that actually matter are always overlooked by the football fools who want to create the narrative that we have the worse defense in college football that hasn't improved but regressed over the last two years.
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Yep, a lot of it is just noise. Some ppl just post negative stuff but it is therapeutic to them, or I hope that's their reasoning. It easy to just look at one or two outliers to plead your case but IMO all the opinions should be put out there it makes for a good conversation to a point. Ultimately the AD and Heupel will make the decision on a foundation of good feedback. Danny White has a family that's been in the business successfully for years and know how to navigate the waters.
 
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#87
#87
Start with our DL and work your way out from the line of scrimmage. We do not do well pressuring QBs in their passing game and have to resort to stunts and blitzes to try to appear to get pressure. We haven't had a good pass rush in years. Get us some people even if we only rush 3 that pressures the QB. Our DBs are often asked to cover waaaaaaaaay too long hence they look worse than what they are. But QBs often have 6 or 7 seconds waiting for somebody to break which they usually do and if they don't they have their backs to the QB who easily picks up a first down by tucking and running. In ANY team sport you have to be strong up the middle defensively or you suck on defense.
 
#88
#88
shakearag said:
Our entire secondary sucks. They are slow, can't tackle, and can't cover. Their coaching is subpar and has been. Martinez is below average and our defensive coordinator is lost in space. The SC loss was the greatest embarrassment that UT has ever experienced. Need to replace both of these coaches.
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Not many, if any, quarter horse is goIng to win, or even qualify, for any of the races which make up the Triple Crown. That is true regardless of who is training the quarter-horses.
 
#89
#89
shakearag said:
Our entire secondary sucks. They are slow, can't tackle, and can't cover. Their coaching is subpar and has been. Martinez is below average and our defensive coordinator is lost in space. The SC loss was the greatest embarrassment that UT has ever experienced. Need to replace both of these coaches.
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Now tell us how you really feel
 
#90
#90
Tarkus said:
I have heard several former players and media members say we are talent deficient in the defensive secondary. I don't doubt them for a minute on that but I don't think we have the worst secondary talent in the country and that is how they are performing. That tells me there is a deficiency in coaching. Our personnel can't be 130th in athletic ability.
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Deion Sanders ran a 4.27 in front of scouts without even stretching.

He could afford to guess or peak into the backfield because he had elite recovery speed.

When you lack recovery speed, you must be of sound technique. However, there reaches a point when that doesn't even matter. If you don't have fluidity of the hips (transition from back pedal) OR run like a LB, you get well, SlaughterED.

Doneiko Slaughter runs a 4.65.
He needed to beef up and become a SS at least. He would not even have elite speed if he was a LB!. So, if/when he guesses wrong, WE are screwed. It gets to a point where it doesn't matter how good you can cover a guy or what your technique looks like if you are just flat out slow.

HS 40 times:
CURRENT:
Trevon Flowers 4.63
Jaylen McCollough 4.71
Christian Charles 4.65


A NEW HOPE:
Jordan Matthews 4.4 (10.66 100m)
Ricky Gibson 4.38
Cameron Seldon 4.29
Nathan Leacock 4.45 (6'2") (10.88 100m)

I couldn't find several players high school 40 times. I'm guessing because they were either embarrassing or didn't help their case FWIW.
 
#91
#91
VOLINVONORE said:
Not many, if any, quarter horse is goIng to win, or even qualify, for any of the races which make up the Triple Crown. That is true regardless of who is training the quarter-horses.
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https://www.researchgate.net/public..._of_Quarter_Horses_Thoroughbreds_and_Arabians

"This study demonstrates that Quarter Horses achieve faster racing speeds than do other breeds."
Our secondary's problem is they are slooooow.
They are more like Arabian horses without the endurance...
 
#92
#92
#93
#93
Kevinyaheard said:
Deion Sanders ran a 4.27 in front of scouts without even stretching.

He could afford to guess or peak into the backfield because he had elite recovery speed.

When you lack recovery speed, you must be of sound technique. However, there reaches a point when that doesn't even matter. If you don't have fluidity of the hips (transition from back pedal) OR run like a LB, you get well, SlaughterED.

Doneiko Slaughter runs a 4.65.
He needed to beef up and become a SS at least. He would not even have elite speed if he was a LB!. So, if/when he guesses wrong, WE are screwed. It gets to a point where it doesn't matter how good you can cover a guy or what your technique looks like if you are just flat out slow.

HS 40 times:
CURRENT:
Trevon Flowers 4.63
Jaylen McCollough 4.71
Christian Charles 4.65


A NEW HOPE:
Jordan Matthews 4.4 (10.66 100m)
Ricky Gibson 4.38
Cameron Seldon 4.29
Nathan Leacock 4.45 (6'2") (10.88 100m)

I couldn't find several players high school 40 times. I'm guessing because they were either embarrassing or didn't help their case FWIW.
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Really the 10-yard dash times and twitch factor mean more. The 40-yard dash is just a starting point. I mean if you run the 40 in say 4-5 but say you run the first 20 in 2.4 and last 2.1 vs a 4-6 guy that has a fast twitch but not a great top end. Say he runs the first 20 in 2.1 and last in 2.5. So, I think the 40 time is a good starting point but not the end all. How many times have you watched a 100-yard dash and see 4 or 5 quick twitch guys shoot out the blocks with great starts, then some top end guys blow by them. Was a DB coach who told me this, but it makes sense. A few guys ball out on the field and then their combine 40s make you go darn; I thought the way he defended he would have been faster.
 
#94
#94
The biggest issues with our pass defense were not talent or coaching IMO. I think they were.

Offensive scheme our defense spent a lot of time on the field and to be able to do that a defense has to be deep and rotate players. We were able to do that at LB and DL but not in the secondary. If your offense is moving that fast and putting up that many points your defense is gonna give up at the very least yards. If we get a lot of possessions they do also. Our offense scores fast and we rarely won the time of possession in any game. I mean seriously did we ever win the time of possession stat since Huepel got here? It's not a negative in this case but it's a factor. Even when we run all our backs have homerun ability. We actually had more rushing TDs than passing 39-35. We had the top scoring offenses in rushing. They next 3 teams under us actually played an extra game (Michigan Utah and Georgia) think about that.

Injuries most of the year we never had the same starting 4 in back to back games. It's like every week 2-3 guys were out because of injury/suspension. Consistency is a big deal on any unit. If we get everyone healthy and bring in some contributors we will be fine.

Reality is this team will always give up points because of our schedule. It is really hard to beat people consistently 40 or 50-0. So yeah we might average 40+ points a game but we will give up in the high 20s it is what it is. In our situation we have to redefine what a good defense is.

Our defense was not terrible. It was not good.Bit it was well withing the realm of expectation.
 
#97
#97
VOLINVONORE said:
You are entitled to your inaccurate opinion. The fact is, you have to have talent if you want to compete and win titles.
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I didn't say anything about not needing talent to win. Your horse analogy was simply wrong. That's not opinion that's a fact. Just Google, "Are quarter horses as fast as thoroughbreds?"
 
#98
#98
shakearag said:
Our entire secondary sucks. They are slow, can't tackle, and can't cover. Their coaching is subpar and has been. Martinez is below average and our defensive coordinator is lost in space. The SC loss was the greatest embarrassment that UT has ever experienced. Need to replace both of these coaches.
Click to expand...
 
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