Paternalism run amok!

#76
#76
Regarding smoking bans (and this soda thing which isn't even really a ban of soda), correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a local and state level law not federal. If you are upset about these then run for city commission or state legislator. Simple as the "open your own restaurant" argument.
 
#77
#77
IBlvNTmWrk said:
So your logic would lead you to equate accident rates to total population (even though less than 2% of India's population owns a vehicle and approximately 10% own a motorcycle)? I'm just an average Joe, but it seems like automobile ownership would be a much better comparison.

  • Approximately 250 million cars, light trucks, suv's etc. in the U.S.
  • Approximately 13 million in India

Also, just for clarification... the previous article referenced accident rates (not fatality rates of accidents) so I'm not sure why you're trying to argue health care systems.

Imagine that... both your percentages and logic are faulty.




Edit: just had to include these comments after the fact.



See correct percentages above.



And your previous argument was that they don't need speed limits in India. Wonder why?
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1. Where did you come up with your number for motorcycle ownership in India? I have never seen actual figures (either with the WHO or WorldBank) on motorcycle ownership:

Motor vehicles (per 1,000 people)
Motor vehicles include cars, buses, and freight vehicles but do not include two-wheelers. Population refers to midyear population in the year for which data are available.

Motor vehicles (per 1,000 people) | Data | Table
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You are correct that less than 1/3 own cars; I would still be quite shocked if less than 1/3 of the adults owned motorcycles.

2. The article you referenced was talking about motor-vehicle fatalities.

Road accidents have earned India a dubious distinction. With over 130,000 deaths annually, the country has overtaken China and now has the worst road traffic accident rate worldwide.
=====
In India alone, the death toll rose to 14 per hour in 2009 as opposed to 13 the previous year. The total number of deaths every year due to road accidents has now passed the 135,000 mark, according to the latest report of National Crime Records Bureau or NCRB.

While trucks and two-wheelers were responsible for over 40 per cent of deaths, peak traffic during the afternoon and evening rush hours is the most dangerous time to be on the roads.

India has the highest number of road accidents in the world | Asia | DW.DE | 29.04.2010
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So, I am not sure why you think it was not focused on fatalities. Now, the article does mention that they are talking about actual individuals that die on the roads; maybe that hurts my point. Of course, first responder services in India are not nearly as responsive as those in America.

India has one of the highest rates of motorcycle injuries. Of the victims classified as "severly injured", nearly 76% sustain head injuries, a figure 25 times higher than that in developed countries. A Traumatic Brain Injury can lead to a range of problems-from mild concussion to paralysis, from personality changes to even coma.

40% of those killed and injured on Indian roads are motorcyclists.
India has one of the highest rates of motorcycle injuries : Health - India Today
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If you want to identify the reasons for most of the motor-vehicle fatalities in India, they are due to motorcycles and the lack of proper protective equipment; the lack of speed limits, in my opinion, plays little to no role.
 
#78
#78
burntorangeVOLffle said:
Regarding smoking bans (and this soda thing which isn't even really a ban of soda), correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a local and state level law not federal. If you are upset about these then run for city commission or state legislator. Simple as the "open your own restaurant" argument.
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Local and state laws cannot supersede federally guaranteed rights. The right to individual liberty is a federally guaranteed right; states cannot override that.
 
#79
#79
burntorangeVOLffle said:
Regarding smoking bans (and this soda thing which isn't even really a ban of soda), correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a local and state level law not federal. If you are upset about these then run for city commission or state legislator. Simple as the "open your own restaurant" argument.
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What part of "private property rights" don't you understand?

The government has no right dictating to a privately owned restaurant what they can and cannot serve.
 
#80
#80
By 2010, China and India will produce a combined total of 36 million motorcycles per year. Let me repeat that, ... 36 MILLION motorcycles PER YEAR!

That number was buried in a news item this morning about a new microcontroller chip for motorcycle engine management systems. These chips precisely control the fuel/air mixture, ignition and who knows what else to keep the engine running at its most efficient while creating the least pollution. The chips are needed, the article stated, because of the growing number of motorcycles being produced and purchased in China and India. It went on:

China and India, the world's largest motorcycle markets, are also developing tougher emission control standards for vehicles in the upcoming years, driving the need for cost-effective electronic engine management systems. Indian companies expect to manufacture 15 million two wheelers a year by 2010, up from 6.7 million in 2005, while China expects to make 21 million two wheelers a year in 2010, up from about 17 million in 2005.

Does anyone else find that statistic mind boggling? Those kinds of numbers mean the motorcycles will be a cheap throwaway, used by one person and not worth repairing when they break. If they were to last longer, the market, no matter how large you think it might be, would soon be flooded and the companies producing these little machines would have to find something else to do. If they were expensive, they would not be able to find enough buyers. And, too, this does not include Japanese, Italian, German or U.S. motorcycles.

The overwhelming majority of motorcycles in China and India are the very small displacement variety. If you're unclear as to why many manufacturers concentrate on larger bikes, re-read that first sentence.

36 Million Motorcycles from China and India by 2010
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Around 63.5M motorcycles manufactured in India since 2005; that is enough, simply produced domestically, to outfit over 5% of India's entire population (to include children) with a motorcycle. 63% of the population is between 15-64 years old, and we are looking at almost 9% of the driving population being outfitted with domestically produced, new motorcycles since 2005. And, remember, this does not include "Japanese, Italian, German, and U.S. bikes" that can be seen throughout India.
 
#81
#81
therealUT said:
1. Where did you come up with your number for motorcycle ownership in India? I have never seen actual figures (either with the WHO or WorldBank) on motorcycle ownership:

If you want to identify the reasons for most of the motor-vehicle fatalities in India, they are due to motorcycles and the lack of proper protective equipment; the lack of speed limits, in my opinion, plays little to no role.
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1. It was a 2010 study I pulled up in a PDF doc, but too lazy to find it again. It had numerous charts, tables, and stats that were referenced, mostly from 2008 iirc.

2. Not according to the article I linked in a prior post.

While trucks and two-wheelers were responsible for over 40 per cent of deaths, peak traffic during the afternoon and evening rush hours is the most dangerous time to be on the roads.

"Most of the city accidents are not necessarily out of drunken driving," says Pereira. "But 99 per cent of the accidents, the fatal accidents that occur outside the cities are due to drunken driving and there is no check on this kind of drunken driving.
 
#82
#82
Pepe_Silvia said:
What part of "private property rights" don't you understand?

The government has no right dictating to a privately owned restaurant what they can and cannot serve.
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Workplaces that are opened to the public are not the same as other "private property" i.e. one's home.

As for the second statement, tell that to liquor stores that aren't allowed to sell beer or even wine glasses in TN.
 
#83
#83
IBlvNTmWrk said:
1. It was a 2010 study I pulled up in a PDF doc, but too lazy to find it again. It had numerous charts, tables, and stats that were referenced, mostly from 2008 iirc.

2. Not according to the article I linked in a prior post.

While trucks and two-wheelers were responsible for over 40 per cent of deaths, peak traffic during the afternoon and evening rush hours is the most dangerous time to be on the roads.

"Most of the city accidents are not necessarily out of drunken driving," says Pereira. "But 99 per cent of the accidents, the fatal accidents that occur outside the cities are due to drunken driving and there is no check on this kind of drunken driving.
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Not from the Rutgers study that refers to data that was compiled in 2002?
 
#84
#84
Thrasher865 said:
Workplaces that are opened to the public are not the same as other "private property" i.e. one's home.

As for the second statement, tell that to liquor stores that aren't allowed to sell beer or even wine glasses in TN.
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Wine glasses, wtf
 
#85
#85
therealUT said:
Not from the Rutgers study that refers to data that was compiled in 2002?
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Nope... no reference to Rutgers in what I read.

Also, the article you previously quoted refers to the manufacture of "two-wheelers". This would include motorcycles as well as other types of two-wheelers. Plus, I don't know the numbers or care to look them up, but would guess that a fair percentage of those bikes are exported. I know Harley opened a mfg (assembly) facility in India a few years ago to reduce the production cost of their bikes.
 
#86
#86
therealUT said:
The justification that the state gives for curbing obesity is that it is costly for the entire society; that is the state's rationalization for directly affecting (restricting) consumer choice. So, not a dumb and irrelevant comparison; in fact, a completely germane comparison.

You have no principle to stand upon in objecting this measure.
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I am in total disagreement with you on this. I agree with Thrash.
 
#88
#88
YorkVol said:
I also noted in the article that it doesn't apply to diet sodas, which have been proven to have a triggering effect that contributes to obesity. So this is really a war on sugar, not obesity.
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The chemicals used to make that drink "diet" are worse for your body than the sugar.
 
#89
#89
utvolpj said:
you read the whole thread and still stand by that?
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I am reading it now......first thought is this is an idividual desicion that effects no one except that person.....I do not buy the "we have to pay for their health care" crap, if it is not sugar then it is something else that makes us ill
 
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#91
#91
therealUT said:
First, they came for the smokers,
But, I didn't say anything because I'm not a smoker;
Then, they came for the trans-fatters,
But, I didn't say anything because I'm not a trans-fatter;
Then, they came for the sodapop drinkers,
But, I didn't say anything because I'm not a sodapop drinker;
Finally, they came for me,
And, I had no principle to stand upon to oppose their draconian measures.
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I opposed every step listed and you can throw in seat belts and helmets.
 
#94
#94
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Nope... no reference to Rutgers in what I read.

Also, the article you previously quoted refers to the manufacture of "two-wheelers". This would include motorcycles as well as other types of two-wheelers. Plus, I don't know the numbers or care to look them up, but would guess that a fair percentage of those bikes are exported. I know Harley opened a mfg (assembly) facility in India a few years ago to reduce the production cost of their bikes.
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According to the Rutgers study, there were over 40 million "registered" two-wheel motor-vehicles in India in 2002 and it was growing at an almost exponential rate. Further, according to the Rutgers study:

Over 50% of traffic fatalities in Delhi are pedestrians,
10% are bicyclists, 21% are motorcyclists, and only 3% are car occupants. The situation is considerably different in Mumbai, perhaps due to its higher density, more extensive public transport network, and more limited roadway supply.

Almost 80% of traffic fatalities in Mumbai are pedestrians,7% are bicyclists, 8% are motorcyclists, and only 2% are car occupants (Mohan, 2004).

While the situation in other Indian cities surely varies somewhat from that in Delhi and Mumbai, pedestrians and bicyclists account for more than half of all traffic fatalities in all Indian cities. Motorcycle and scooter users account for another 10–20% of fatalities in cities. Car occupants, by comparison account for only about 5% of fatalities. Even on India’s highways, pedestrians and bicyclists account for 45% of all fatalities, with motorcyclists accounting for another 24%

Aside from the increase in motor vehicle ownership
and use, several other factors contribute to the safety problem:

1. inadequate road supply and quality, often unpaved and
in bad repair;
2. unsafe driving behavior—which results from virtually
non-existent driver training, extremely lax licensing
procedures, and lack of traffic law enforcement;
3. unsafe vehicles;
4. inadequate or non-existent traffic signals and signage
and lack of traffic management;
5. almost complete lack of infrastructure for pedestrians
and cyclists;
6. forced sharing of narrow, crowded rights of way by
both motorized, non-motorized vehicles, pedestrians,
animals, and street vendors;
7. overcrowding of buses, auto-rickshaws, and even
motorcycles.

Whatever the safety problem faced by car drivers, it is far exceeded by the more dangerous situation facing motorcyclists, bicyclists, and pedestrians.

http://policy.rutgers.edu/faculty/pucher/FINALarticleTransportPolicy.pdf
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Personally, I put more weight on (1), (3), and (5)-(7), plus the fact that many who are being hit are not in the least protected (i.e., they are on motorcycles, bikes, and/or walking and are not wearing any protective equipment) and that first responder services in India are not very responsive. That said, this study does support my contention that there are a ****-ton of motorcycles in India (40 million registered in 2002 (only accounts for those motorcycles that are registered which is not a requirement outside of the major cities), plus another 60 million since 2005 which only accounts for those produced domestically) and that traffic laws are not enforced.
 
#98
#98
OrangeEmpire said:
wtf

why
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Presumably fallout from the fact that the liquor stores adamantly oppose the sale of wine/liquor in grocery stores. Then, the grocery stores come back and say, "well, if we can't sell X, then they can't sell Y. It's only fair."

Makes sense for beer, I guess. I don't like it, but it makes a little bit of sense. But glasses? Can't sell mixers unless they have alcohol in them, etc. Can't sell corkscrews. I mean, it's just a load of bureaucratic BS.
 
#99
#99
Pepe_Silvia said:
What part of "private property rights" don't you understand?

The government has no right dictating to a privately owned restaurant what they can and cannot serve.
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Really? Where can I order some dog meat?

Start a case and take it to the supreme court. If you disagree there are outlets for you to change things.
 
#100
#100
Thrasher865 said:
Presumably fallout from the fact that the liquor stores adamantly oppose the sale of wine/liquor in grocery stores. Then, the grocery stores come back and say, "well, if we can't sell X, then they can't sell Y. It's only fair."

Makes sense for beer, I guess. I don't like it, but it makes a little bit of sense. But glasses? Can't sell mixers unless they have alcohol in them, etc. Can't sell corkscrews. I mean, it's just a load of bureaucratic BS.
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There's a place in Johnson City that has a work around this. Half the building is beer and cigars the other is wine and liquor. Technically they are two seperate businesses but owned by the same people.
 
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