Peyton manning= best qb ever

BadJerry20, there have been a series of articles produced within the last couple of years that are producing the kind of data you seek regarding fourth-quarter comebacks. Data therein is quite interesting but not synthesized in a terribly straightforward fashion.

One article, authored by Scott Kacsmar before the current season (Captain Comeback: NFL Network Chokes on List of Top 10 Clutch Quarterbacks) focuses primarily on deconstructing conclusions advanced by the NFL Network's 2008 program, "Top 10 Clutch Quarterbacks." Some interesting takeaway info from this article includes the following data:

A. Montana’s comebacks weren’t just big in volume. He had 31, but 23 of them came on the road or a neutral site. That ties Peyton Manning for the most in NFL history.
B. There’s a short list of quarterbacks with more wins in the clutch than losses (minimum 30 games): Matt Ryan (23-14), Tom Brady (38-25), Joe Montana (34-31), Peyton Manning (50-49) and Dan Marino (51-50).
C. His revision of NFL Network's list of clutch QBs, which he emphasizes is not the same as a list of the "greatest" NFL quarterbacks, is as follows:

1. Joe Montana
2. Johnny Unitas
3. Peyton Manning
4. Tom Brady
5. Dan Marino
6. John Elway
7. Roger Staubach
8. Eli Manning
9. Ben Roethlisberger
10. Drew Brees

Another article, written prior to the 2012 season and also authored by Kacsmar, primarily focuses on demonstrating statistically why Brett Favre was NOT a great clutch quarterback (Brett Favre: Why the Gunslinger Was Not a Clutch Quarterback | Bleacher Report). There is a lot of good comparative data here.

A third article, authored by Kacsmar in October 2012 ( Peyton Manning is the NFL), contextualizes Peyton's achievement as the then-new record holder for most 4th-quarter comebacks, indeed listing everyone of them up to that point in time, but does not analyze his record in comparison to those of Montana, Marino, etc. It is worth noting that eight of Peyton's comebacks involved fourth-quarter deficits of 10 or more points, and five of them involved deficits of 14 or more points. Furthermore, the San Diego victory (2012) was the "7th time in Manning’s career he came back from a deficit of 17+ points (at any time in the game), which extends his NFL record."

A fourth article, authored by Nicholas Higgins in 2010, works from the premise that not all fourth-quarter comeback attempts are created equal (FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Adjusted Comeback Efficiency). He comes up with a metric, which he calls Adjusted Comeback Efficiency, the purpose of which is to "provide a comprehensive figure for measuring a quarterback’s performance in potential game-winning or game-tying situations. . . . Adjustments were made for four factors: starting field position, time remaining in game, deficit (how many points behind), and outcome (no score, field goal attempt, touchdown). For example:

Quarterback A: after an interception return, he starts at his opponent's 5-yard line down by one point with two minutes to go.
Quarterback B: after a kickoff, he starts at his own 20-yard line down by 8 points with 30 seconds to go.

Quarterback A has a much easier scenario than Quarterback B. Therefore, the ACE rating gives more credit to Quarterback B for a successful comeback than Quarterback A, and penalizes Quarterback B less than Quarterback A for failure. . . . [In short, t]he ACE rating calculates how efficient a quarterback is in potential comeback situations, taking into account the level of difficulty of the situation."

Unfortunately, his results include only quarterbacks with at least 30 qualifying drives from 1998 to 2009 (including playoffs), so Montana and Marino are largely excluded, presumably because of insufficiently detailed drive-by-drive data. Based on this formula, Eli Manning finished with the highest ACE (1.55), which underscored efficiency at fourth-quarter comeback opportunities (when they availed themselves) despite his otherwise often erratic play. In short, a Jekyll-Hyde performance pattern.

With respect to Brady, Higgins offers some intriguing, if controversial, conclusions: "Brady has a very high ACE rating -- 1.24 -- but that still doesn't seem to fit his reputation as the best clutch quarterback of the past decade, and he ranks eight places lower in ACE (14th) than he does in QB rating (6th). Brady’s career ACE rating is dragged down by his uncharacteristically poor 2009 season, when he went 1-for-10 on comebacks and had the first below-average seasonal ACE rating of his career (not counting 2004, when he only had one comeback drive). If 2009 is removed, his ACE rating is 1.32, which would be eighth on the list. Brady has also been in easier comeback situations than other quarterbacks. His average degree of difficulty per drive was the easiest of any player in the top 20 of the ACE rankings. [This, in my opinion, would suggest consistently beneficial field position as a result of excellent defense and special teams play.] Finally, there's the Adam Vinatieri effect: Every time Vinatieri hit a clutch kick in the playoffs, Brady was measured based on what we would expect from an average field-goal kicker instead. This is how Brady can lead all quarterbacks in actual comeback percentage (45 percent) but rank just 14th in ACE."

Peyton comes in with the third highest ACE score (1.40) and, interestingly, Higgins chronicles progressive improvement in Peyton's game over the course of his career in this respect: "Some (*cough* Bill Simmons *cough*) have theorized that Peyton was a choker for most of his career but became clutch somewhere around the Super Bowl victory in 2006. The theory is right, but the timing is wrong -- the year Peyton Manning became clutch was 2002. Looking at the above table, it can be seen that Peyton indeed had some rough years early in his career (including a 1-for-19 start). Since 2002, Peyton has performed exceptionally well. In fact, Peyton from the last 8 seasons would be the top quarterback by far with a 1.74 ACE rating."

Again, there is a whale of a lot of the kind of data you are looking for here, if you want to thoroughly examine these articles.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
Sadly, the haters don't consider it "clutch" unless it's in the playoffs.
 
This argument is silly. Everyone can clearly see that Peyton is, at the very least, just as good as Brady, probably better. Look at the total defense ranking for their respective teams each year and then tell me who's argument is irrational.

We are talking QB play, not organizational success.

Fair point. It drives me crazy when people quote Manning's lack of success in the playoffs. Sure, the stats are there but if you look at the defenses that he had with the Colts early on you would see they were pretty bad. Brady has had a perfect environment from the get go: until the last few years, he always had a pretty stout defense (Wilfork, Bruschi, Vrabel, Law, Mayo, Harrison, Seymour), and perhaps one of the best head coaches of all time in Belichick. I'm not taking anything away from Brady, but you have to agree that he's had a greater supporting cast around him during his career. One last point, I've never seen another QB in control of his offense as much as Manning. He has to be the most prepared QB of all time and is almost never fooled by the defense
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
Excellent posts Volosaurus Rex. Thanks

I will agree, Peytons largest come from behind victory is more impressive than Joes.

Everyone take a deep breath here...lol Joe's Super Bowl drive is the most impressive drive in history when you factor these together. Pressure, length, difficulty, and importance, 16-13 3:10 left and 92 yards to go in the biggest game. Plus we even got a John Candy reference out of it. Lol
 
Peyton apparently decided to personally close this thread once and for all by breaking every individual season QB record known to man. :biggrin:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
Peyton apparently decided to personally close this thread once and for all by breaking every individual season QB record known to man. :biggrin:

Just needs that 2nd ring for the doubters.
 
If he gets a second ring, some of the doubters will find another clause. It's just he way it is. Anyone dissing Peyton can kiss my ass.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people
If he gets a second ring, some of the doubters will find another clause. It's just he way it is. Anyone dissing Peyton can kiss my ass.

You're probably right. Then it will be 3 to match Brady, then four to match Montanna. The ring mongers know only one thing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
You're probably right. Then it will be 3 to match Brady, then four to match Montanna. The ring mongers know only one thing.

Don't care what they think and they should be ignored. Peyton was the GOAT even before these last couple of years in Denver but now he is just rubbing it into all the haters' faces.
I'm loving every minute of this NFL season and at least we have something football related to be proud of as Tennessee fans while the Vols our rebuilding (and CP obviously doing amazing as well).
 
You're probably right. Then it will be 3 to match Brady, then four to match Montanna. The ring mongers know only one thing.

It will never be enough. Hatahs gon hate. Especially Turdy Bratshaw, who can attribute his 4 rings to Harris, Stallworth, Swann, Webster, Ham, Greene, Greenwood, Lambert……I could go on, but my hands are getting sore.
 
Interesting stat I heard mentioned during a game throigh the playoffs I thought was interesting g to the GOAT discussion. Montanna and Young were a combined 1-6 on the road in the playoffs. I'm not sure who got the win or piled up more losses.

I guess the question is, how much do road wins count toward greatness? Or is it just about the the overall record and the ultimate goal of winning SBs.
 
Last edited:
I don't think you can just consider rings because football is a team sport and Montana was on some super teams. He was a great QB, but wouldn't have five rings if he played on some of the teams Manning played on . In the end Manning will be one of top five of all time tough to say who is the best ever.
 
I'm pretty sure (since we're imagining) that CP's lack of route running & discipline would've been a burr in Peyton's saddle.

Now if Peyton was able to refine CPs skills? Well then...wow.

Dallas Clark, Jacob Tomme and Julius Thomas say hi....the latter was a basketball player turned Tight End.
 
Interesting stat I heard mentioned during a game throigh the playoffs I thought was interesting g to the GOAT discussion. Montanna and Young were a combined 1-6 on the road in the playoffs. I'm not sure who got the win or piled up more losses.

I guess the question is, how much do road wins count toward greatness? Or is it just about the the overall record and the ultimate goal of winning SBs.

Our current qb has more road playoff wins than Joe & Steve put together. But where the game is played doesn't really matter. And when judging each particular position, why is the Super Bowl a measuring stick? It should be about who plays that position the best and who accumulated the best stats. Who's team won the title has no affect or bearing on who was the best at any given position in any given year. Another ring will help Peyton's argument though. As will another MVP Award. And then there is next year, where the numbers will continue to rise. Hard to see him not finishing as the GOAT.
 
Our current qb has more road playoff wins than Joe & Steve put together. But where the game is played doesn't really matter. And when judging each particular position, why is the Super Bowl a measuring stick? It should be about who plays that position the best and who accumulated the best stats. Who's team won the title has no affect or bearing on who was the best at any given position in any given year. Another ring will help Peyton's argument though. As will another MVP Award. And then there is next year, where the numbers will continue to rise. Hard to see him not finishing as the GOAT.

I guess the argument is the QB is supposed to be the leader of the team and carry them to victories.

I think where the game is played should factor into how great a QB is. Eli Manning will never be in the GOAT discussion but he will get to the HOF based off of 6 road playoff wins capped by 2 SB wins.
 
I remember when detractors said all Peyton needed was one ring, funny how the debate changes after one criteria is met.
 
I remember when detractors said all Peyton needed was one ring, funny how the debate changes after one criteria is met.

Yep. They'll say he only has half as many as Montana and Bradshaw, and 1 fewer than Brady if he wins his 2nd in two weeks....the bar will always be moved unless he gets to 4...just the way it is.
 
Why all the whining about this? It's unnecessary!

There is no absolute/ objective answer to who the "greatest" is. It's all subjective considering there is no set criteria for judging. Bradshaw and Montana played before the salary cap. Unitas and Baugh played before color tv. Brady and Manning played in different systems. Marino racked up tons of stats but never won the SB.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Manning (win or lose in the SB) can lay his claim as the best ever and look you in the eye while doing it. He doesn't take a back-seat to anyone.

So Vol/ Manning fans, just enjoy what you're watching and stop whining about the moving targets concerning who is the greatest. He's certainly on the Mt. Rushmore of QB's. That's good enough.
 

VN Store



Back
Top