Peyton manning= best qb ever

[BadJerry20]

lol

Dismiss all of the facts and stats that make Peyton look good and inflate all of the achievements of the QBs who played on the best teams.

Just admit you're really a Gator fan already. You sound just like one.

Tony Romo has the most 4th quarter/overtime comebacks since 2011, do you consider him the most clutch QB during that period?
/ discussion

The classic you're not a real fan argument, when someone has a different opinion. Well guys we almost made it having a logical conversation. Parties over.

 

[newandbetter]

That time Peyton Manning tried to recruit Randy Moss to Tennessee | FOX Sports on MSN

 

[Hacksaw]

Tony Romo has the most 4th quarter/overtime comebacks since 2011, do you consider him the most clutch QB during that period?
/ discussion

The classic you're not a real fan argument, when someone has a different opinion. Well guys we almost made it having a logical conversation. Parties over.

I've posted so many facts and stats discussing this with you and you have consistently dismissed or ignored them all. You simply are not rational when it comes to this topic. Maybe you're just a bigger 49ers fan than you are a Vol fan (which is fine, if that's your thing). Maybe Joe Montana is your dad or something.

Or you could be a Gator fan. Like I said, you sound just like one.

 

[vols-1]

As we have gone round and round in this debate, at least part of the success enjoyed by Montana and Brady is attributable to a superior defensive supporting cast that they enjoyed, compared to the circumstances under which Peyton and Marino played.

Others have had good defenses but four or five times times Manning's teams have lost to a team in the playoffs that he beat in regular season.

 

[BadJerry20]

I've posted so many facts and stats discussing this with you and you have consistently dismissed or ignored them all. You simply are not rational when it comes to this topic. Maybe you're just a bigger 49ers fan than you are a Vol fan (which is fine, if that's your thing). Maybe Joe Montana is your dad or something.

Or you could be a Gator fan. Like I said, you sound just like one.

You should probably read the thread before you act like you know how this discussion has gone. I'm fairly certain most people in here would say it's been pretty rational, and has had really good feedback and interaction instead of the normal I am right you are wrong way this discussion tends to go. I know that's not your way of communicating, as evident by your first 2 posts in here. But if you want to look childish and petty that's all you. I've talked with your rational outlook on this subject and you have zero objectivity, so you really bring nothing to the table as far as a sensible back and forth honestly.

You still haven't answered my question, do you consider Romo the most clutch QB the last 3 years?

 

[iluvsmesumdooley]

Championships not stats means best IMO. And Joe Montana has Five total championships.

Montana had four titles, not five. But the number of titles do not best define the best QB. This is garbage typically spewed by that bonehead Terry Bradshaw, who had four rings but is still trying to justify his place in history even though everybody with half a brain knows Roger Staubach (2 titles) was better than him hands down. Bradshaw had one thing in common with Brady - both of them had INCREDIBLE defenses during their title runs. Bradshaw had Green, Lambert, etc. clogging up offenses while Brady had Harrison, Vrabel, Seymour, Bruschi, etc. doing the same. Let's see, who did Manning have with the Colts? Freeney and….ummm…..Freeney….and…..Okay, scratch that. Who did he have with Denver? Miller and…..uhhhh….Miller…..err…hmmmm….

Give Manning to New England and Bellichunk would have about 6 to 8 rings on his hands instead of 3. Peyton is 10 times better than Tommy.

 

[iluvsmesumdooley]

I've always wondered why Munoz was considered the best OL in my lifetime and Sanders the best RB, yet neither have won a SB. But when we talk about Manning, it's like, "NOOOOOOOOOO, he only has one SB! Harrumph, harrumph!!!"

Moronic logic. Newsflash, boneheads - there are lots of starters on a football team. I emphasize TEAM. The best TEAMS win the SBs, not the best QBs. Otherwise, Turkey Bratshaw would not have four rings.

 

[BadJerry20]

That dudes so mad.

 

[Hacksaw]

I've always wondered why Munoz was considered the best OL in my lifetime and Sanders the best RB, yet neither have won a SB. But when we talk about Manning, it's like, "NOOOOOOOOOO, he only has one SB! Harrumph, harrumph!!!"

Moronic logic. Newsflash, boneheads - there are lots of starters on a football team. I emphasize TEAM. The best TEAMS win the SBs, not the best QBs. Otherwise, Turkey Bratshaw would not have four rings.

You're just going to confuse them with facts. Trust me on that.

 

[BadJerry20]

You're just going to confuse them with facts. Trust me on that.

Still waiting on you to answer to the Romo question, so you can bring your rational thinking to the discussion.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

I've always wondered why Munoz was considered the best OL in my lifetime and Sanders the best RB, yet neither have won a SB. But when we talk about Manning, it's like, "NOOOOOOOOOO, he only has one SB! Harrumph, harrumph!!!"

Moronic logic. Newsflash, boneheads - there are lots of starters on a football team. I emphasize TEAM. The best TEAMS win the SBs, not the best QBs. Otherwise, Turkey Bratshaw would not have four rings.

This position-specific application of a theory is what I find most irritating about debates concerning the greatest quarterback of all time. Yes, quarterbacks impact the outcome of a game more than any single position. However, when a quarterback as supremely talented as Dan Marino only has the opportunity to play in one Super Bowl, let alone win it, and far less talented quarterbacks, such as Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams and Jim McMahon lead teams to Super Bowl victories, you would think that pundits would realize the need for a more nuanced analysis or at least apply the same ludicrous theory to all positions.

With respect to fourth-quarter comebacks, there are a couple of points that I don't believe have been mentioned previously in this thread. It is entirely possible that good to great quarterbacks on dominant defensive teams may not have the opportunity to pull off as many fourth quarter comebacks, simply because they don't surrender as many points to begin with and they are less prone to surrender fourth-quarter leads due to their more consistently high level of play. Conversely, great quarterbacks who are frequently saddled with mediocre to weak defenses, such as Marino and Manning, are more frequently put in the position to orchestrate fourth-quarter comebacks, due to their defenses' inability to securely shut the door on opponents.

 

[BadJerry20]

This position-specific application of a theory is what I find most irritating about debates concerning the greatest quarterback of all time. Yes, quarterbacks impact the outcome of a game more than any single position. However, when a quarterback as supremely talented as Dan Marino only has the opportunity to play in one Super Bowl, let alone win it, and far less talented quarterbacks, such as Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams and Jim McMahon lead teams to Super Bowl victories, you would think that pundits would realize the need for a more nuanced analysis or at least apply the same ludicrous theory to all positions.

With respect to fourth-quarter comebacks, there are a couple of points that I don't believe have been mentioned previously in this thread. It is entirely possible that good to great quarterbacks on dominant defensive teams may not have the opportunity to pull off as many fourth quarter comebacks, simply because they don't surrender as many points to begin with and they are less prone to surrender fourth-quarter leads due to their more consistently high level of play. Conversely, great quarterbacks who are frequently saddled with mediocre to weak defenses, such as Marino and Manning, are more frequently put in the position to orchestrate fourth-quarter comebacks, due to their defenses' inability to securely shut the door on opponents.

Careful that second paragraph will get you called a Florida fan.

As I've said a couple times, though I don't get why people don't understand that. I wish they had a success % for fourth quarter comebacks. Peyton may very well have the highest success rate ever, but just saying how many he has doesn't tell the full story.

 

[KBVol]

4th quarter comebacks are an overrated stat. Guys get penalized for not being behind. Plus we don't know how many times the guy failed in those situations. If there was a % of success that would be far more telling.

We might disagree here. The top 5 all time are some of the greatest to ever play. Being able to lead your team on a 4th qtr drive to win the game isn't a common occurrence as evidenced by the numbers below. Not sure what % of success records are, but I'd be willing to bet these guys were successful more often than not and that there's a reason why there are no average qbs on the list ...,

1. Peyton Manning 40
2. Dan Marino 36
3. John Elway 35
4. Joe Montana 31
Tom Brady 31
5. Brett Favre 30

One could also make the argument that because each of these qbs were the best in the business, that they were less likely than average QBs to have opportunities to win the game late, which would make the stat even more impressive.

 

[KBVol]

Just answer this:

Were you shocked last year when Manning threw the pick in OT?

Gotta admit.... I was less shocked that he threw that pick than I was Denver's DB giving up that ridiculous, inexcusable Td pass to send the game to OT after Manning had won the game with a clutch 4th quarter td drive.

 

[BadJerry20]

We might disagree here. The top 5 all time are some of the greatest to ever play. Being able to lead your team on a 4th qtr drive to win the game isn't a common occurrence as evidenced by the numbers below. Not sure what % of success records are, but I'd be willing to bet these guys were successful more often than not and that there's a reason why there are no average qbs on the list ...,

1. Peyton Manning 40
2. Dan Marino 36
3. John Elway 35
4. Joe Montana 31
Tom Brady 31
5. Brett Favre 30

One could also make the argument that because each of these qbs were the best in the business, that they were less likely than average QBs to have opportunities to win the game late, which would make the stat even more impressive.

People have argued profusely that Montana and Brady have better teams, so it's probable that they are ahead late in games more than they are not. Marino and Manning have worse defenses so games are/were probably closer late. Therefore giving them more opportunities. Now obviously they are still clutch or they wouldn't have such high numbers. But just for discussion, say player X had 50 chances and got 36 of them, now say player Y had 40 chances and got 31. Just looking at the sheer number of comebacks you would say obviously say player X is better. If they tracked %s we would actually see player Y was better. Now like I said maybe Peytons % is the highest, but just a plain number doesn't tell a full story.

As I've said Romo leads the league since 2011, going by numbers Romo is the most clutch QB. I'm doubting anyone truly believes that.

 

[BadJerry20]

Gotta admit.... I was less shocked that he threw that pick than I was Denver's DB giving up that ridiculous, inexcusable Td pass to send the game to OT after Manning had won the game with a clutch 4th quarter td drive.

He is going to jump on that post. Just a warning. Lol

 

[KBVol]

People have argued profusely that Montana and Brady have better teams, so it's probable that they are ahead late in games more than they are not. Marino and Manning have worse defenses so games are/were probably closer late. Therefore giving them more opportunities. Now obviously they are still clutch or they wouldn't have such high numbers. But just for discussion, say player X had 50 chances and got 36 of them, now say player Y had 40 chances and got 31. Just looking at the sheer number of comebacks you would say obviously say player X is better. If they tracked %s we would actually see player Y was better. Now like I said maybe Peytons % is the highest, but just a plain number doesn't tell a full story.

As I've said Romo leads the league since 2011, going by numbers Romo is the most clutch QB. I'm doubting anyone truly believes that.

Cuts both ways. Manning and Marino were also more prolific passers than both Montana and Brady and their offenses scored more points, which could theoretically mean they had fewer chances. Over time it more than likely all comes out in the wash.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

Careful that second paragraph will get you called a Florida fan.

As I've said a couple times, though I don't get why people don't understand that. I wish they had a success % for fourth quarter comebacks. Peyton may very well have the highest success rate ever, but just saying how many he has doesn't tell the full story.

The sun could rise and set on 10,000 years before I could ever be confused with a member of the Reptilian Horde. It would, however, be a useful metric to see who holds the highest percentage of successful fourth-quarter comebacks but, alas, I will leave that research project to someone else. There should, however, be a threshold for consideration. I don't care if quarterback X has successfully orchestrated 100% of all fourth quarter-comeback attempts if he only has eight or ten to his credit. In that scenario, his perfect record will not impress me as much as Peyton's documented 40 fourth-quarter comeback wins. Keep in mind, too, that significant year-to-year fluctuation in this stat could reflect more upon porous defensive play than the quarterback's ability to seal the deal.

 

[KBVol]

He is going to jump on that post. Just a warning. Lol

No worries. Telling the truth and providing context while doing so.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

On a brief side note, congratulations to everyone contributing to this thread. This is one of the longest threads which I can recall on this forum that has actually remained on topic almost continuously without recourse to the snarky, sarcastic dialogue which so frequently permeates discourse here. Now back to your regularly scheduled debate.

 

[vols-1]

Montana had four titles, not five. But the number of titles do not best define the best QB. This is garbage typically spewed by that bonehead Terry Bradshaw, who had four rings but is still trying to justify his place in history even though everybody with half a brain knows Roger Staubach (2 titles) was better than him hands down. Bradshaw had one thing in common with Brady - both of them had INCREDIBLE defenses during their title runs. Bradshaw had Green, Lambert, etc. clogging up offenses while Brady had Harrison, , etc. doing the same. Let's see, who did Manning have with the Colts? Freeney and….ummm…..Freeney….and…..Okay, scratch that. Who did he have with Denver? Miller and…..uhhhh….Miller…..err…hmmmm….

Give Manning to New England and Bellichunk would have about 6 to 8 rings on his hands instead of 3. Peyton is 10 times better than Tommy.

Manning's teams included have Dwight Freeney,Jeff Saturday,Robert Mathis,Champ Bailey, Antoine Bethea,Tarik Glenn,Bob Sanders> All multiple pro-bowlers.

As mentioned numerous times earlier Montana won a National Championship in college also. I know everyone says he was a one trick pony with the 49ers, but how many athletics in any sport have that kind of record?

 

[BadJerry20]

The sun could rise and set on 10,000 years before I could ever be confused with a member of the Reptilian Horde. It would, however, be a useful metric to see who holds the highest percentage of successful fourth-quarter comebacks but, alas, I will leave that research project to someone else. There should, however, be a threshold for consideration. I don't care if quarterback X has successfully orchestrated 100% of all fourth quarter-comeback attempts if he only has eight or ten to his credit. In that scenario, his perfect record will not impress me as much as Peyton's documented 40 fourth-quarter comeback wins. Keep in mind, too, that significant year-to-year fluctuation in this stat could reflect more upon porous defensive play than the quarterback's ability to seal the deal.

I agree with that, but the QBs we are arguing have done it at least 30 times so that's kind of a moot point.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

More ammunition for the pro-Peyton contingent. Peyton Manning and Eric Berry have been selected to the 2014 Pro Bowl (Manning, Berry Selected To Pro Bowl - UTSPORTS.COM - University of Tennessee Athletics). This is the thirteenth time Peyton has been so honored; Peyton joins the select company of Reggie White, Jerry Rice and Tony Gonzalez as players with thirteen Pro Bowl appearances. Only Hall of Fame lineman Bruce Matthews (14) made more all-star games.

 

[BadJerry20]

Cuts both ways. Manning and Marino were also more prolific passers than both Montana and Brady and their offenses scored more points, which could theoretically mean they had fewer chances. Over time it more than likely all comes out in the wash.

This will help a little...maybe. Lol First Brady's offenses over history have actually out scored Manning led offenses 28-27.2 Marino was last of the four with 23.2

Listed in order from biggest scoring differential.

Player-pts scored-opp pts-differential

Brady 28 pts per 18.7 allowed +9.3
Montana 24.9 per 16.7 allowed +8.2
Manning 27.3 per 21.4 allowed +5.8
Marino 23.2 per 20.3 allowed +2.9

A few things the guys with the higher total comebacks are the bottom 2. So its feasible that they had more chances.

I was a little shocked Brady led teams scored more, though not by much and was aided better a better overall ground game.

Joe and Brady obviously had better scoring defenses, which obviously helped them win titles. But may have cut comeback numbers as well.

While its probable PM and DM had more chances due to closer games, they capitalized by having the most comebacks.

Lastly poor Dan a +2.9 let that sink in for a minute...Brady had 2 seasons where his team didn't score atleast 75 more pts on the year. Manning had 5. Montana had 6. Marino had 13 or the same as the other 3 guys combined. Seasons of atleast 50 more pts scored. Brady and Manning had 2, Montana 4. Marino 8 or again the same as the other guys. Somebody in Miami owes that guy an apology.

 

[BadJerry20]

On a brief side note, congratulations to everyone contributing to this thread. This is one of the longest threads which I can recall on this forum that has actually remained on topic almost continuously without recourse to the snarky, sarcastic dialogue which so frequently permeates discourse here. Now back to your regularly scheduled debate.

I know right, I feel like I'm on the wrong site. Lol