Political Debate Sunday Night at my Church.....

[volinbham]

I think we are agreeing volinbham. The problem comes when more often than not political issues drive and dictate the content of the religious subject matter and discourse. For example, the amount of attention given to homosexuality in the bible is nowhere near proportional to the amount of attention it recieves from religious leadership. Even the frequency and occurance of gay marriage in society and its role in culture is way out of proportion to the amount of attention it recieves from the pulpit.

I couldn't really say since I rarely attend church services. It's probably over represented in some and under represented in others. I would imagine that the topics for sermons have some ties to issues that are more salient at any given time.

 

[cibai]

Really? I've been to church almost every single Sunday since I was baptized (when I was about 4 months old), and I have never sat in on a sermon concerning homosexuality and/or gay marriage.

Well congratulationseace2: What's your point?

 

[herksrus]

I sat in on a sermon a few months back in Atlanta (Christ the King Catholic Church, I believe) in which the priest made the point that we should enjoy life, that alcohol is a blessing to man kind (as long as it is handled with responsibility and moderation), etc. I doubt that same sermon would have flown in many baptist churches in the same city...[/QUOTE]

You got that right. Our communion was even grape juice.

 

[herksrus]

Really? I've been to church almost every single Sunday since I was baptized (when I was about 4 months old), and I have never sat in on a sermon concerning homosexuality and/or gay marriage.

I distintcly remember sermons and Sunday school lessons covering Sodom and Gahmora. (sp)

 

[dduncan4163]

Sorry, but religion should stay out of politics. If that's not obvious, I don't know what is.

I totally agree. Something tells me that Jesus doesnt endorse the Dems or GOP.

 

[OWB]

I totally agree. Something tells me that Jesus doesnt endorse the Dems or GOP.

Funny thing is, if Jesus were alive today, he'd definitely be a Democrat.

 

[dduncan4163]

Mixing Politics and Religon is never a good thing. We have hundreds of years of history to prove that.

 

[OWB]

Mixing Politics and Religon is never a good thing. We have hundreds of years of history to prove that.

George Bush sez: History Schmistory

 

[volinbham]

Funny thing is, if Jesus were alive today, he'd definitely be a Democrat.

I doubt He'd feel comfortable in the company of either party's representatives.

 

[herksrus]

Funny thing is, if Jesus were alive today, he'd definitely be a Democrat.

I saw no little smiley face or anyhting that would suggest that you were being funny.

SO, you go to be kidding. Im sure Jesus loves seeing thousands of unborn babies showing up on his doorstep in heaven every day. Yeah, he would definatly align himself on the left.

According to the Bible he had a couple of cities burnt to the ground because of the homosexuality that was going on there. Yeah, your right, hes all for gay marriage.

Yep,if Jesus was around he would definitely be a Demorcrat.

 

[vader]

Jesus was mostly about peace, love and understanding...wait, that was Elvis Costello.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.

Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Matthew 7:1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Doesn't sound like he would be much of a republican either.

Oh, and FYI, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah was told in Genesis. That was a couple of thousand of years before Jesus.

 

[volinbham]

Jesus was mostly about peace, love and understanding...wait, that was Elvis Costello.

Don't forget Nick Lowe - he wrote the song!

 

[vader]

Don't forget Nick Lowe - he wrote the song!

I stand corrected :hi:

 

[volinbham]

I stand corrected :hi:

It's a mix of both - EC was the one who made it famous k:

 

[OldVol]

[it would appear I got an extra e stuck in Massachusetts, I'll blame it on old age and eye sight. I really do know how to spell it. ]

"Never should government be involved in the affairs of the church, but the church should always be involved in the affairs of government."

So, for those who believe Adams or Jefferson built a wall betwixt church and state, all I can say to them is; whatever. The only wall these men sought to erect was a wall that kept the government from dictating church doctrine. They also feared the aura that followed many clerics who came to this country from European countries that lived under Cleric Rule. They fought to ensure that no American government would provide a position of any kind to a cleric ex officio.

In light of today's environment, I can only see this ending badly for your church.

There are 24 churches in America at this very moment being investigated by the IRS in regard to their tax exempt status due to their involvement in politics. These are cases of biased involvement, which it does not seem could be a charge leveled at your church, but it's still a very tricky legal landscape to navigate.

 

[OWB]

Other Jefferson quotes in letters and such..

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - "Notes on Virginia"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - to John Adams, 1803[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - to Baron von Humboldt, 1813[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - to Carey, 1816[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -in his private journal, Feb. 1800[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it.[/FONT]" [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - to Carey, 1816[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - to Story, Aug. 4, 1820[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. That there are three Gods.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] "Notes on Virginia"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Creeds have been the bane of the Christian church ... made of Christendom a slaughter-house."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Let us, then, fellow citizens, unite with one heart and one mind. Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things. And let us reflect that having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of a bitter and bloody persecutions."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

 

[OWB]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -Virginia Act for Religious Freedom[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"... I am not afraid of priests. They have tried upon me all their various batteries of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying and slandering. I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East to the Saints of the West and I have found no difference of character, but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or ignorance on whom their interested duperies were to be played off. Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develop itself."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - letter to Horatio Spofford, 1816[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot.... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT[/FONT]

 

[herksrus]

[it would appear I got an extra e stuck in Massachusetts, I'll blame it on old age and eye sight. I really do know how to spell it. ]

"Never should government be involved in the affairs of the church, but the church should always be involved in the affairs of government."

[COLOR=black]So, for those who believe Adams or Jefferson built a wall betwixt church and state, all I can say to them is; whatever. The only wall these men sought to erect was a wall that kept the government from dictating church doctrine. They also feared the aura that followed many clerics who came to this country from European countries that lived under Cleric Rule. They fought to ensure that no American government would provide a position of any kind to a cleric ex officio.[/COLOR]
In light of today's environment, I can only see this ending badly for your church.

There are 24 churches in America at this very moment being investigated by the IRS in regard to their tax exempt status due to their involvement in politics. These are cases of biased involvement, which it does not seem could be a charge leveled at your church, but it's still a very tricky legal landscape to navigate.

This is what I was taught in high school but I didnt know how to convey it to our everso devoted dems.

 

[OWB]

Some John Adams quotes on Christianity..

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -letter to Thomas Jefferson[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] - letter to John Taylor[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -letter to Thomas Jefferson[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"[/FONT]

​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."[/FONT]

 

[OWB]

You also have to understand that when founding fathers such as Jefferson or Adams spoke of God and things related, they were speaking about the God they believed in. (The God of Nature)

 

[GAVol]

No doubt that most of the Founding Fathers leaned toward a form of Deism.

 

[volinbham]

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"

Interesting - implies he believes in a creator as the ultimate source of law but is against the trappings of some religions.

Based on this statement - I'd say he's okay with God in the pledge and In God We Trust on the currency.

 

[OWB]

Interesting - implies he believes in a creator as the ultimate source of law but is against the trappings of some religions.

Based on this statement - I'd say he's okay with God in the pledge and In God We Trust on the currency.

Again, I'm not saying that they were atheists, they were deists. They believed in a God of Nature but thought that he had no influence on everyday life.

My main point being, this nation was not founded on Christianity or any religion for that matter. That's part of what they were trying to get away from in England.

 

[volinbham]

My point is that the founders weren't trying to create a system that built a wall between religious beliefs and the govt.

While I agree that the govt shouldn't pick a religion, I think it's going too far to say the govt. can't acknowledge the concept of a creator - the core of religion. Since these dudes believed in a creator and felt our rights flowed from that creator, it seems pretty clear they would be okay with the gov't giving props to the Big Man (or Woman or Alien or whatever).

 

[OWB]

Well, there's a difference between giving props to the big man and Bush saying that he talks to the big man often and the big man tells him what to do.