Pope's remarks

[emainvol]

ummm, kill people?

 

[emainvol]

i will direct you to a prior statement i made about people burning effigies for centuries, it's been a tool used to voice displeasure for a long time.

 

[therealUT]

im sorry, it was a poor choice of words, if you take out the words "the same" i think we could all agree.

There is a difference between an outcry, ie a voicing of displeasure, and violence, ie murdering a 75 year old nun.

When the Metropolitan Museum of Art decided to go forward with its exhibit in which the Catholic Church was the target of some very lewd art, many Catholics protested and/or boycotted the Met. When Newsweek ran an article (which was later retracted) in which they alluded to an incident in which a Koran was flushed down a toilet, Muslims throughout the Arab world violently rioted. Hundreds of people died as a result of these "reprisals."

The choice of words that was poor was not only "the same" but the word "outcry." These Muslims are not crying out, they are seeking vengeance. There is a huge difference. As long as people will still use words like "outcry" and try to make these Muslims into "victims" then there will be little pressure on the majority of Muslims who do not agree with these tactics to actually speak out against those of their own faith.

 

[J.Quest]

speaking out against one's religion is one of the quickest ways to tick them off, i don't blame the more sane muslims for burning effigies. i however believe that violence related to the matter is absolutely shameful (which is an understatement.) if and when a muslim leader makes comments about the catholic church in a very public arena, such as the pope did, i do believe there will be outcry from the church.

The difference is that muslim leaders are saying that the West and the Pope are doomed. The Pope wasn't making up anything in his statement. Islam does preach exactly what he said and what he said was taken out of context to be his personal opinion. The death threats and shooting of the nun only serve to prove what he said.

And again, where are the sane muslims? what are they doing to stave off the madness and denounce radical islam? Challenge: Show us where sane muslims and muslim leaders are taking a united front and public stance against the radicals...

 

[therealUT]

the less inflamatory one. his comments were completely irresponsible.
and for the record, there have been plenty of examples of people trying to force religion on other people, coincidentally enough, a lot of them involved catholics in one way or another. how bout the crusades? the spanish inquisition? read the bible, it's chock full of violence in the name of religion.

The Spanish Inquisition, huh? You should probably search this forum for posts concerning the Inquisition...you will learn a lot. You should also read books concerning the Crusades.

Again, you should actually read the speech that Pope Benedict made, as that would be a nice place to start before calling him irresponsible and inflammatory. Finally, I will leave you with this excerpt:

Nothing the pope has ever said comes even close to matching the vitriol, extremism and hatred that pour out of the mouths of radical imams and fanatical clerics every day, all across Europe and the Muslim world, almost none of which ever provokes any Western response at all. And maybe it’s time that it should: When Saudi Arabia publishes textbooks commanding good Wahhabi Muslims to “hate” Christians, Jews and non-Wahhabi Muslims, for example, why shouldn’t the Vatican, the Southern Baptists, Britain’s chief rabbi and the Council on American-Islamic Relations all condemn them — simultaneously?
Maybe it’s a pipe dream: The day when the White House and Greenpeace can issue a joint statement is surely distant indeed. But if stray comments by Western leaders — not to mention Western films, books, cartoons, traditions and values — are going to inspire regular violence, I don’t feel that it’s asking too much for the West to quit saying sorry and unite, occasionally, in its own defense. The fanatics attacking the pope already limit the right to free speech among their own followers. I don’t see why we should allow them to limit our right to free speech, too.

Anne Applebaum
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[J.Quest]

Amen!

 

[emainvol]

the point is, in this day, when a lot of muslims already think there is hatred throughout the christian world for them, you must be more guarded in what you say in the public arena. quote or no quote

 

[emainvol]

from wikipedia. first paragraph.

The Spanish Inquisition was established in 1478 by Ferdinand and Isabella to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms and was under the direct control of the Spanish monarchy. It was not definitively abolished until 1834, during the reign of Isabel II.

i know enough about the spanish inquisition to classify it as an attempt to force religion.

 

[emainvol]

There is a difference between an outcry, ie a voicing of displeasure, and violence, ie murdering a 75 year old nun.

The choice of words that was poor was not only "the same" but the word "outcry." These Muslims are not crying out, they are seeking vengeance.

yes, and these muslims are the radical minority

 

[allvol123]

the point is, in this day, when a lot of muslims already think there is hatred throughout the christian world for them, you must be more guarded in what you say in the public arena. quote or no quote

I must be guarded in what I say. I think not. What kind of logic is this? Extremist Muslims do not want to kill you because they think you hate them. They want to kill you because you are not Muslim.

 

[emainvol]

I must be guarded in what I say. I think not. What kind of logic is this? Extremist Muslims do not want to kill you because they think you hate them. They want to kill you because you are not Muslim.

and we all know that the only muslims that exist are extremist muslim.

 

[emainvol]

the moderate muslims that we still have some semblence of a peaceful relationship with are the ones that we do not want, or need to alienate.

 

[therealUT]

from wikipedia. first paragraph.
i know enough about the spanish inquisition to classify it as an attempt to force religion.

Force religion on whom? The only victims of the Inquisition were Catholics. Jews and Muslims were completely exempt from the Inquisition. However, the inquisition in its entirety, killed less people than radical Islam has killed in the past 25 years...

 

[therealUT]

the moderate muslims that we still have some semblence of a peaceful relationship with are the ones that we do not want, or need to alienate.

Where are these moderate Muslims? They are certainly not making their presence felt.

Also, there is an outcry right now from Catholics over what radical Muslims are doing, killing people. I do not see Catholics reprising Muslims...

 

[emainvol]

Force religion on whom? The only victims of the Inquisition were Catholics. Jews and Muslims were completely exempt from the Inquisition. However, the inquisition in its entirety, killed less people than radical Islam has killed in the past 25 years...

they were, but there were plenty of non-orthodox catholics who were thrown in jail because of beliefs and opposition to orthodox catholic leaders. force doesn't necessarily mean execution.

 

[emainvol]

Where are these moderate Muslims? They are certainly not making their presence felt.

Also, there is an outcry right now from Catholics over what radical Muslims are doing, killing people. I do not see Catholics reprising Muslims...

i agree, they are not. i also agree with the line of thinking that they should in some way try to interject, unfortunately to this point they do not, but they still are not people we want to piss off. the last thing this world needs is that final separation between itself and the entire muslim world.

 

[therealUT]

they were, but there were plenty of non-orthodox catholics who were thrown in jail because of beliefs and opposition to orthodox catholic leaders. force doesn't necessarily mean execution.

Considering Pope Urban publicly came out against the Inquisition, as the head of the Catholic Church, I would say that it is a completely different situation than what is happening right now among the Islamic community. There have been no high level Sheiks speaking out against Islamic terrorism...

 

[therealUT]

i agree, they are not. i also agree with the line of thinking that they should in some way try to interject, unfortunately to this point they do not, but they still are not people we want to piss off. the last thing this world needs is that final separation between itself and the entire muslim world.

I would disagree wholeheartedly. I believe that the last thing we need is people condemning the Pope for giving a speech, and thus exonerating people who are committing acts of grotesque violence.

 

[emainvol]

Considering Pope Urban publicly came out against the Inquisition, as the head of the Catholic Church, I would say that it is a completely different situation than what is happening right now among the Islamic community. There have been no high level Sheiks speaking out against Islamic terrorism...

Progressive Muslims » CANADIAN ISLAMIC LEADERS DENOUNCE TERROR

> SEARS TOWER PLOT <BR> Muslim leaders denounce 7 suspects <!-- HEADLINE END -->@ CAIR Chicago

UPF Conferences : Convocation - New York, 2005

three examples. i have been hoping for a while that this could filter through and eventually make its way throughout leaders in the faith.

 

[emainvol]

I would disagree wholeheartedly. I believe that the last thing we need is people condemning the Pope for giving a speech, and thus exonerating people who are committing acts of grotesque violence.

well we will have to disagree on that one. i believe that the muslim world, especially the moderates, represents a powder keg of sorts.

 

[therealUT]

well we will have to disagree on that one. i believe that the muslim world, especially the moderates, represents a powder keg of sorts.

So, your approach is: let them do as they please, it is just too volatile to get involved...

Great approach, Mr. Chamberlain.

 

[emainvol]

So, your approach is: let them do as they please, it is just too volatile to get involved...

Great approach, Mr. Chamberlain.

i'd like to see where anything i said approached that one.

 

[therealUT]

Progressive Muslims &#187; CANADIAN ISLAMIC LEADERS DENOUNCE TERROR

> SEARS TOWER PLOT <BR> Muslim leaders denounce 7 suspects <!-- HEADLINE END -->@ CAIR Chicago

UPF Conferences : Convocation - New York, 2005

three examples. i have been hoping for a while that this could filter through and eventually make its way throughout leaders in the faith.

As for the first link...I am glad that Canadian Muslims are taking action.

The second link is absolutely worthless concerning this issue.

The third link might in its headline and opening paragraph try to mask itself as Muslim leaders denouncing terrorism, however, starting with the following paragraph it turns into an apologist column for radical Islam:

Dr. Munther Hadadeen, a former Minister in the Jordanian government, sounded a more cautionary note. &#8220;We have to be honest about the underlying reasons for Islamic extremism,&#8221; he said. &#8220;It was convenient for the West to encourage it when there was a communist enemy to oppose. But when the Soviet Union collapsed, those allies and the promises that were made to them were all forgotten. Out of that sense of betrayal emerged the conditions for Al Qaeda to recruit so many. They were able to persuade these men that they should undertake a jihad &#8211; a crusade &#8211; to recapture lost honor.

Basically, these Islamic leaders are saying, "Sure, terrorism is bad, however, America and Britain caused it..." Again, absolutely worthless.

These leaders to not need to get up and condemn, yet make excuses for, the terrorists. They need to stand up and say, "What you are doing is evil and there is no justifiable reason for your actions." And, they need to leave it at that.

 

[emainvol]

As for the first link...I am glad that Canadian Muslims are taking action.

The second link is absolutely worthless concerning this issue.

The third link might in its headline and opening paragraph try to mask itself as Muslim leaders denouncing terrorism, however, starting with the following paragraph it turns into an apologist column for radical Islam:
Basically, these Islamic leaders are saying, "Sure, terrorism is bad, however, America and Britain caused it..." Again, absolutely worthless.

These leaders to not need to get up and condemn, yet make excuses for, the terrorists. They need to stand up and say, "What you are doing is evil and there is no justifiable reason for your actions." And, they need to leave it at that.

the third involves moonies as well, i honestly should have given it a better read before posting the link.

 

[emainvol]

i have to disagree with the second being worthless as one of the leaders in question called for muslims to watch for suspicious behavior at mosques. i honestly think there are those who are trying their best to help in the fight against terrorism.

it is however, a stretch, but they have the right idea.