Prayers for So and So

#126
#126
It's a no win argument and it shouldn't be an argument. A discussion, if you will, but no reason to argue although that's what usually ensues.
 
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#127
#127
volinbham said:
If man is hypocritical then Christians are hypocritical. Hardly seems like a damning criticism worthy of dismissing the entire religion.
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You're equating the individual with the church. Wrong premise.

A church that's hypocritical may have an individual member that's not. Example - Catholic Church protects a pedophile = hypocrisy. Individual member may find that repulsive. However, "The Church" determines what is "Christian."

A true "christian" follows the actual teachings of Christ. Christ hated hypocrites.

The damning criticism is "christians" that are hypocrites claiming to be "christians."

Not sure why that's hard to comprehend.
 
#128
#128
bamacheats said:
You're equating the individual with the church. Wrong premise.

A church that's hypocritical may have an individual member that's not. Example - Catholic Church protects a pedophile = hypocrisy. Individual member may find that repulsive. However, "The Church" determines what is "Christian."

A true "christian" follows the actual teachings of Christ. Christ hated hypocrites.

The damning criticism is "christians" that are hypocrites claiming to be "christians."

Not sure why that's hard to comprehend.
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The "church" is still made up of individuals.

It appears you consider hypocrisy to be a big deal but I'm guessing you've been a hypocrite in your life at some time no?

As for the Christ hated hypocrites part that clearly isn't the essence of Christ's teachings. It sounds crazy to even claim Christ "hated" any group of people.
 
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#129
#129
Slydell said:
It's a no win argument and it shouldn't be an argument. A discussion, if you will, but no reason to argue although that's what usually ensues.
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I have only recently come to the understanding that arguing religion is a fruitless pursuit. Christians have been called to love, submit their will to God's, and share the message of salvation to others. It is actually God that does the work on the heart of man. It's just as incorrect to think that we can "save" somebody as it is for us to think that we can "save" ourselves.

Honestly, I totally understand why so many people have a bad taste for modern Christianity. I think a lot of churches have become misguided and misrepresent the Truth. I don't like the "better than thou" mentality and remind both myself and others that we ALL fall short of the standard. I'll be the first to admit that I'm a sinner, and I don't deserve anything but condemnation. However, God loves us so much that he offered His own son to pay the price for our rebellion. I think we should lead by Christ's example and pray that God's grace would come to those with hardened hearts.
 
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#130
#130
I don't go to church but think I have a good relationship with God when we talk and I go to honest and deep places. I think He digs me for that. None of its fake and none for show.
I''ll put in a good word for a couple of you heathenites.
 
#131
#131
Spartacavolus said:
I don't go to church but think I have a good relationship with God when we talk and I go to honest and deep places. I think He digs me for that. None of its fake and none for show.
I''ll put in a good word for a couple of you heathenites.
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*Heetherns
 
#132
#132
volinbham said:
The "church" is still made up of individuals.

It appears you consider hypocrisy to be a big deal but I'm guessing you've been a hypocrite in your life at some time no?

As for the Christ hated hypocrites part that clearly isn't the essence of Christ's teachings. It sounds crazy to even claim Christ "hated" any group of people.
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The "church" (which one out of 10,000+) is made up of individuals but not by individuals. Big difference. An individual may not be a hypocrite but be a member of a church that is hypocritical.

Church members don't show up and vote on Christ's teachings, they show up and are told what Christ taught.

As far as me being a hypocrite, weak argument. Someone may tell a lie, doesn't make them a liar. A liar is someone who's disposition is to lie. A good hearted person may tell a lie for good reason (a father lying about the whereabouts of his family to a criminal). An act of hypocrisy does not make one a hypocrite, who's disposition is to be a hypocrite, but a church that teaches, as Christian, a teaching that's not Christian, is by definition a hypocrite, which hate to inform you, Christ hates.
 
#133
#133
I've read that post about 5 times and I don't get what the point is supposed to be. It seems to say that since no church is perfect, no church is worthy.
 
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#134
#134
bamacheats said:
The "church" (which one out of 10,000+) is made up of individuals but not by individuals. Big difference. An individual may not be a hypocrite but be a member of a church that is hypocritical.

Church members don't show up and vote on Christ's teachings, they show up and are told what Christ taught.

As far as me being a hypocrite, weak argument. Someone may tell a lie, doesn't make them a liar. A liar is someone who's disposition is to lie. A good hearted person may tell a lie for good reason (a father lying about the whereabouts of his family to a criminal). An act of hypocrisy does not make one a hypocrite, who's disposition is to be a hypocrite, but a church that teaches, as Christian, a teaching that's not Christian, is by definition a hypocrite, which hate to inform you, Christ hates.
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The church you describe in the bold would be teaching a false doctrine. That church would better be described as a false prophet instead of a hypocrite, IMHO.
 
#136
#136
kiddiedoc said:
I have only recently come to the understanding that arguing religion is a fruitless pursuit. Christians have been called to love, submit their will to God's, and share the message of salvation to others. It is actually God that does the work on the heart of man. It's just as incorrect to think that we can "save" somebody as it is for us to think that we can "save" ourselves.

Honestly, I totally understand why so many people have a bad taste for modern Christianity. I think a lot of churches have become misguided and misrepresent the Truth. I don't like the "better than thou" mentality and remind both myself and others that we ALL fall short of the standard. I'll be the first to admit that I'm a sinner, and I don't deserve anything but condemnation. However, God loves us so much that he offered His own son to pay the price for our rebellion. I think we should lead by Christ's example and pray that God's grace would come to those with hardened hearts.
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Well said.
 
#137
#137
n_huffhines said:
I respect that opinion :good!:
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While I am a Christian, I do struggle with the concelt of God's intercession. I have had two situations recently that have seriously made me consider that prayer does work, though. One was this wknd.
My friend was having a baby on Friday and the kid was believed to have dwarfism and was given a small chance for even survival. My wife and I spent a lot of time praying and even did a couple of Rosaries.
As of right now, it appears that everything is perfectly normal with the kid. It might be another coincidence, but for the second time in about 3 years, I feel like God is trying to tell me I'm just not as smart as I think I am.
My human nature won't let me give up trying to understand the reason for every little thing that happens, but I know I never will.
 
#138
#138
jhen713 said:
I'll say this. My grandmother was on her "death bed" at Emory and the Dr said that he was sorry and they had tried all they knew t do and she was going fast and wouldn't make it through the night. We all began to pray and reached out to friends and family asking them to pray. The Dr came out(I still say with tears in his eyes) saying that all of a sudden her #s started leveling out and stabilizing. He added that he felt like it was because of what we had been doing, not them.
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Easily explainable. She could probably hear you and others in the room and it encouraged her and her stats came up a little. Did she get better and get to leave?
 
#139
#139
Panthro said:
While I am a Christian, I do struggle with the concelt of God's intercession. I have had two situations recently that have seriously made me consider that prayer does work, though. One was this wknd.
My friend was having a baby on Friday and the kid was believed to have dwarfism and was given a small chance for even survival. My wife and I spent a lot of time praying and even did a couple of Rosaries.
As of right now, it appears that everything is perfectly normal with the kid. It might be another coincidence, but for the second time in about 3 years, I feel like God is trying to tell me I'm just not as smart as I think I am.
My human nature won't let me give up trying to understand the reason for every little thing that happens, but I know I never will.
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Its not a miracle every time a doctor is wrong, sorry.
Doctors are humans and make mistakes and their machines and tests make mistakes too sometimes.
 
#140
#140
K-town Vol Fan said:
Its not a miracle every time a doctor is wrong, sorry.
Doctors are humans and make mistakes and their machines and tests make mistakes too sometimes.
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Hey man, you don't have to tell me about that. I get your point. I'm just saying I've had two times recently where I had a feeling come over me to make me think the prayer was worth it.
The other time was when my sister-in-law was run over by a car on a snowy night on the Pellissippi Pkwy bridge. IF she survived it was understood that hat there would be permanent brain damage. She was in a coma for 15 days and is now fine. Her only souvenirs from the accident are scars and she lost her sense of smell.
Again, it could have been luck, but I've never prayed so hard and I felt like it might have worked. There was a fb group asking for prayers for her and it had close to 15000 members.
The point is just that when I question divine intervention, I now have to consider the two times I felt like someone was trying to prove me wrong.
 
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#141
#141
Panthro said:
Hey man, you don't have to tell me about that. I get your point. I'm just saying I've had two times recently where I had a feeling come over me to make me think the prayer was worth it.
The other time was when my sister-in-law was run over by a car on a snowy night on the Pellissippi Pkwy bridge. IF she survived it was understood that hat there would be permanent brain damage. She was in a coma for 15 days and is now fine. Her only souvenirs from the accident are scars and she lost her sense of smell.
Again, it could have been luck, but I've never played so hard and I felt like it might have worked. There was a fb group asking for prayers for her and it had close to 15000 members.
The point is just that when I question divine intervention, I now have to consider the two times I felt like someone was trying to prove me wrong.
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My mother in law was dead for 8 minutes before she came back to us. Was then transported to the hospital where during the next two days had three more heart attacks. Doctors said she wouldn't make it and the family had all but accepted her forthcoming death.

That was two years ago and she is alive and kicking. She does have issues walking but she's as normal as before. ( for being an arkie).
 
#142
#142
K-town Vol Fan said:
Easily explainable. She could probably hear you and others in the room and it encouraged her and her stats came up a little. Did she get better and get to leave?
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We weren't in the room, she was in an ICU critical care and we weren't allowed back there. We were in a waiting area. Yes, that was back in 2010(the day Dooley was hired...:banghead2:) She is still living today. You can tell she's aged some and doesn't get around as well, but she's still alive.
 
#143
#143
This still gives me chills..when my mamaw was in the hospital when I was younger, my aunt was staying with her one night & she looked at my aunt and said "the angels are here to get me" and my aunt said come on momma you're not dying cut it out.

My aunt said it wasn't but a few seconds later my mamaw had a peaceful smile on her face and passed away.
 
#145
#145
Prayer works. Placebos also work. As long as the desired result is achieved what does it really matter how it works?
 
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#146
#146
kiddiedoc said:
As to the former, of course not. My belief is not based in "proof" or science, but rather in faith, which is a gift from God. However, whether I look at the intricacies of molecular/cellular structure or to the expanse of the universe, there is nothing to refute the existence of a real, loving God.

In answer to your second question, certainly. We often dub that "natural causes," complications of x/y, or just idiopathic. I don't always understand why bad things happen, but in truth, I don't understand how God could offer us healing and salvation through the substitution of Christ's blood, either. The good news is that it isn't my job to comprehend His plan and would be foolish to think we could.
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As to the first, I can respect that. I don't agree, but if it works for you then all the best.

As to the second, are you saying:

When bad things happen without explanation it is "natural causes". Can't understand, etc?

When good things happen it is the supernatural work of God?
 
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#147
#147
bamacheats said:
Prayer works. Placebos also work. As long as the desired result is achieved what does it really matter how it works?
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It doesn't. But the matter of prayer working has a yes or no answer. It's really that simple. Its not a mysterious paradigm that's up to one's own personal interpretation.
 
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