Prison reform needed?

#51
#51
McDad said:
I understand your pov. I used to share it. And, I think you are right. There will be some kids who are cavalier with experimentation because it is legal. A free society is not perfect. A free society simply allows for us to make decision both good and bad.
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If only the consequences were isolated only to the individual making bad decisions.
 
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#53
#53
RockyTop85 said:
I am. We are, somewhat, although we have courts for that. I don’t think lawyers at large are as successful at lobbying as prosecutors and cops are, though. At least where I am in TN, FOP support counts for a lot in local elections.
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You need to move to a more liberal state.
 
#54
#54
RockyTop85 said:
I am. We are, somewhat, although we have courts for that. I don’t think lawyers at large are as successful at lobbying as prosecutors and cops are, though. At least where I am in TN, FOP support counts for a lot in local elections.
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interesting. You're delineating lawyers and prosecutors. I've never made a distinction. To me, prosecutors are lawyers, too.
 
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#55
#55
37L1 said:
You need to move to a more liberal state.
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In Chattanooga, there was a municipal police officer who was arresting people for DUI, left and right without a decent case. He pounded some Hispanic guy’s face into oatmeal and I think that is what got him fired. I heard a lot of attorneys joke that it sucked he got fired because they made a lot of money getting his crappy cases dismissed.

There’s more moral ambiguity to the full story, but the short version is that that was never me. I’ve mostly moved out of criminal defense out of frustration over wishing it was a better system and not being willing to be a party to it anymore. I’d rather have better (fewer) laws than a steady stream of cases that piss me off.
 
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#57
#57
37L1 said:
If only the consequences were isolated only to the individual making bad decisions.
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It isn't true for other bad decisions which are currently legal. Same should hold true for drugs.

Examples...
Student loans: bad decision for some which effects everybody (potentially)
Driver's licenses: bad decision can kill innocent people
Guns in the household.
 
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#58
#58
RockyTop85 said:
In Chattanooga, there was a municipal police officer who was arresting people for DUI, left and right without a decent case. He pounded some Hispanic guy’s face into oatmeal and I think that is what got him fired. I heard a lot of attorneys joke that it sucked he got fired because they made a lot of money getting his crappy cases dismissed.

There’s more moral ambiguity to the full story, but the short version is that that was never me. I’ve mostly moved out of criminal defense out of frustration over wishing it was a better system and not being willing to be a party to it anymore. I’d rather have better (fewer) laws than a steady stream of cases that piss me off.
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You need to move to a more liberal state.

J/K
 
#59
#59
McDad said:
interesting. You're delineating lawyers and prosecutors. I've never made a distinction. To me, prosecutors are lawyers, too.
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It’s like facial tissue and kleenex. Except they have different interests.

In Tennessee, the district attorneys conference has some lobbying power. There is a public defender’s conference and Tennessee Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and maybe some collections of other lawyers with a shared speciality(?) but as far as I know, when the legislature is debating a bill their political interests tend to push them toward the law enforcement lobbies point of view.
 
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#60
#60
RockyTop85 said:
It’s like facial tissue and kleenex. Except they have different interests.

In Tennessee, the district attorneys conference has some lobbying power. There is a public defender’s conference and Tennessee Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and maybe some collections of other lawyers with a shared speciality(?) but as far as I know, when the legislature is debating a bill their political interests tend to push them toward the law enforcement lobbies point of view.
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Aggressive, ambitious, ethically-challenged prosecutors are a real problem.
 
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#61
#61
McDad said:
It isn't true for other bad decisions which are currently legal. Same should hold true for drugs.

Examples...
Student loans: bad decision for some which effects everybody (potentially)
Driver's licenses: bad decision can kill innocent people
Guns in the household.
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Yeah but,. . . drug addiction does severely impact the victim's immediate family, the neighborhood/society, that now has to take care of the addict.

Ever seen a neighborhood that has a drug problem?

You can see the bars on the windows and doors. . .
 
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#62
#62
37L1 said:
If only the consequences were isolated only to the individual making bad decisions.
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This is what I’m interested in seeing in Oregon. The argument is that a lot of drug adjacent crime will go away with legalization/decriminalization. In American society, I’m not so sure.
 
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#63
#63
RockyTop85 said:
It’s like facial tissue and kleenex. Except they have different interests.

In Tennessee, the district attorneys conference has some lobbying power. There is a public defender’s conference and Tennessee Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and maybe some collections of other lawyers with a shared speciality(?) but as far as I know, when the legislature is debating a bill their political interests tend to push them toward the law enforcement lobbies point of view.
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Well, it is an "law and order" POV.

They tell me Portland is nice this time of year. . .
 
#64
#64
RockyTop85 said:
It’s like facial tissue and kleenex. Except they have different interests.

In Tennessee, the district attorneys conference has some lobbying power. There is a public defender’s conference and Tennessee Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers and maybe some collections of other lawyers with a shared speciality(?) but as far as I know, when the legislature is debating a bill their political interests tend to push them toward the law enforcement lobbies point of view.
Click to expand...
Aggressive, ambitious, ethically-challenged prosecutors are a real problem.
 
#65
#65
37L1 said:
Yeah but,. . . drug addiction does severely impact the victim's immediate family, the neighborhood/society, that now has to take care of the addict.

Ever seen a neighborhood that has a drug problem?

You can see the bars on the windows and doors. . .
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Yes sir. I agree. Drug abuse is a problem which effects entire communities. Illegality has not protected those folks. The freedom and autonomy we are supposed to have over ourselves is not without consequences to use and others (potentially). But this is the 'price' we pay for our liberty.
 
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#66
#66
McDad said:
Aggressive, ambitious, ethically-challenged prosecutors are a real problem.
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Lazy, stupid ones are a problem too.

One of the defendant’s weapons in criminal defense was “I will fight you to the death over some stupid ****** case that I have no hope of winning.” You’ve got 250 cases including 50 murders and rapes on your desk that you have to deal with but if you want X from this case, you can come pry it from my cold dead hands.

It wasn’t that explicit, but you start making them work and you tend to get better offers.

The problem was when you had somebody who was lazy, stupid, inexperienced, or scared to lose their job who got dug in on too many dumb cases and didn’t have time for their really serious charge that should have been reduced so they won’t look closely at it.

A lot of these problems can be addressed by smaller legal code and shorter sentences.
 
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#67
#67
RockyTop85 said:
This is what I’m interested in seeing in Oregon. The argument is that a lot of drug adjacent crime will go away with legalization/decriminalization. In American society, I’m not so sure.
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How long will it be until the now legal gets transported across state lines and the DA gets busted?

How long before the now legal, gets trafficked in neighboring states, where it is still illegal? Captialism. . .
 
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#68
#68
RockyTop85 said:
Lazy, stupid ones are a problem too.

One of the defendant’s weapons in criminal defense was “I will fight you to the death over some stupid ****** case that I have no hope of winning.” You’ve got 250 cases including 50 murders and rapes on your desk that you have to deal with but if you want X from this case, you can come pry it from my cold dead hands.

It wasn’t that explicit, but you start making them work and you tend to get better offers.

The problem was when you had somebody who was lazy, stupid, inexperienced, or scared to lose their job who got dug in on too many dumb cases and didn’t have time for their really serious charge that should have been reduced so they won’t look closely at it.

A lot of these problems can be addressed by smaller legal code and shorter sentences.
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And less criminals.
 
#69
#69
37L1 said:
How long will it be until the now legal gets transported across state lines and the DA gets busted?

How long before the now legal, gets trafficked in neighboring states, where it is still illegal? Captialism. . .
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Bound to happen. Don't we see similar in states bordering colorado?
 
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#71
#71
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
As a country we really need to take a look at what is actual criminality. We have entirely too many laws on the books. It has led to an erosion of our actual liberties. To me a crime is when there is an actual victim to actions taken by another party.
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And the victim can’t be the initiator of the crime which the law is trying to prevent. Doing something stupid to yourself is a God given right. Doing something stupid to somebody else is where any law should come into play.
 
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